Small monitor

[julespython]

What is the smallest monitor besides akies. I currently have 2 sand goannas in my 4x2x2 tank but I'm getting rid of them because that is obviously to small for them. Oh and the monitor has to love the whole desert, sand, burrow thing because that is what the tank is like and I wouldn't want to get a forest sort of monitor cos It wouldn't match my hot desert, sandy, ground dwelling theme. I'll get some pics up of the tank as soon as I can.

[saximus]

Varanus brevicauda or spenceri

[Bodie]

Varanus brevicauda or spenceri

He's getting rid of his Gouldii as they're too big for his enclosure, why would he get a Spenceri?

[Pilbarensis]

Storrs and Gillens would work. You could easily fit a pair in that sized tank.

[saximus]

He's getting rid of his Gouldii as they're too big for his enclosure, why would he get a Spenceri?

Because they're smaller than gouldii and they're awesome. You're right though, sorry, I didn't notice the actual enclosure size before so that wouldn't work either

[Bluetongue1]

I have deleted the first part of this as the information was not useful.

Varanus goudii has a recorded max length of 1.65 m and V. spenceri, which has a stockier build, 1.2 m.

Blue

EDIT: From discussion following this post, the gouldii length is exceptional (if correct) and the spenceri length is an under-statement. Snout-vent lengths (SVL) are a better indicator of size for enclosure than the total lengths (TL) quoted here.

[crocdoc]

Because they're smaller than gouldii and they're awesome.

Someone tell that to this male - 1.5m and massive!



Bluetongue - I'd be wary of quoting lengths from books. 'Varanus gouldii' as a species used to include what is now called Varanus panoptes. Although we now know they are separate species, some of the older maximum length measurements (and other details) still persist in the literature. Consequently, you'll see a maximum length of 1.6m for Varanus gouldii when that would have been recorded from Varanus panoptes. V. gouldii doesn't get that large. The other thing to consider is that total lengths are misleading when gauging or comparing size. V. spenceri have a stubby tail compared to a V. gouldii, so a 1.2m V. spenceri would be much larger than a 1.2m V. gouldii.

As a bit of an aside (but sort of related to the V. gouldii/V. panoptes story), the Varanus rosenbergi around Sydney were thought to be V. gouldii many years ago, too. Even though they have since been split, every now and then one will still see references in the literature to V. gouldii having an unmarked tail tip 'except for the population around Sydney, which has bands down to the tip of its tail'. That's a V. rosenbergi characteristic.


To the original poster - if you're not a fan of ackies and want a small monitor that will use that space, I'd agree with V. gilleni or V. brevicauda as good choices.

[richardsc]

because your in victoria,scrub brevies off your list,gillens or storrs would be ok,possably freckled and blackheaded monitors to but they can get bigger than ackies,so cage size u mentioned would be as small as you would want for them,more so blackheads

[crocdoc]

I've always found Victoria's licensing bewildering. People can get crocodiles without issue and there's no experience/minimum age limit for getting lace monitors (which, in my opinion, are far more dangerous captives than most venomous snakes when it comes down to the likelihood of sustaining permanent damage), but brevicauda are verboten. What's with that? They're easily bred in captivity, so it can't be a rarity thing, and they're unbelievably hardy, so it can't have anything to do with difficulty of care. Bizarre.

[El_Lagarto]

NSW is not much better. I always find it astonishing that you can keep a number if small elapids on a Class 1 that are very difficult to feed and often require force feeding their entire lives; however you can't keep a number of species of lizards that are very easy to care for and breed readily (V.storri and V. brevacauda included).

[saximus]

Does it come from the "old" days when these things were rare and the departments just haven't caught up or is there some strange reasoning that we just aren't privvy to?

[Bluetongue1]

Crocdoc,

If this is in relation to a recent accusation someone posted, forget it. I made the mistake of responding to their first post. It comes about from not being able to satisfactorily justify their initial rudeness and so they sought to belittle me in an attempt to nullify my initial criticisms. Whilst I am far from impressed, the only effective way to end such nonsense was to ignore it.

Please feel free to check the figures I have quoted against any available data.

If you want more accurate data on V. gouldii, northern form to 1.6 m, southern form to1.5 m and desert form (often referred to as the subspecies flavirufus) to 1.4 m. Gould's also vary according to locale within the three regions. The sizes recorded are for Gouldii specimens collected by the WAM.

As for V. panotes panoptes and V. panoptes rubidus, both get 1.6 m (males only, females are markedly smaller).

I am aware of SVL being a better measure on many occasions. I was tempted to give both and then decided, as it was cage size, total length might be more appropriate.

Captive monitors, especially the large species, can exceed their wild maximum length. I have seen some massive captive Lace Monitors that would easily have exceeded the expected wild length maximum of just over 2 m.

Blue

[El_Lagarto]

I suspect it's the former Sax, would be interested to know if anyone can confirm this.

Another good example is western and central blue tongues being Class 2 in NSW. The main difference in husbandry between them and the easterns is a lower humidity requirement. But how is that any different to shinglebacks which are Class 1?

Does it come from the "old" days when these things were rare and the departments just haven't caught up or is there some strange reasoning that we just aren't privvy to?

[crocdoc]

Crocdoc,

If this is in relation to a recent accusation someone posted, forget it. I made the mistake of responding to their first post. It comes about from not being able to satisfactorily justify their initial rudeness and so they sought to belittle me in an attempt to nullify my initial criticisms. Whilst I am far from impressed, the only effective way to end such nonsense was to ignore it.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm guessing by your response that this is a touchy topic for you and you're confusing me with someone else.

If you want more accurate data on V. gouldii, northern form to 1.6 m, southern form to1.5 m and desert form (often referred to as the subspecies flavirufus) to 1.4 m. Gould's also vary according to locale within the three regions. The sizes recorded are for Gouldii specimens collected by the WAM.

This hints at what I was talking about. When I first went to the NT 30 years ago, before the split between panoptes and gouldii became widely known, panoptes were referred to as 'northern form' gouldii. Most of the size records have not been corrected and my guess is that this may be the case with the WAM's records.

Does it not seem even a tiny bit odd to you that gouldii and panoptes have the same published length? Having spent time in the field seeing both species, the idea that both panoptes and gouldii have the same length seems odd to me as panoptes is consistently a much, much larger animal. A 1.6m gouldii may occur, but it would be the Robert Wadlow of gouldii. A 1.6m panoptes would be nowhere near as unusual.

I think SVL is a better gauge to use for captivity because a large bulky body will need a lot more space than a relatively thin tail. For example, you wouldn't dare trying to squeeze a 3m Komodo dragon into an enclosure designed for a 3m Varanus salvadorii, as the 3m dragon would weigh 3-4 times as much as the tree crocodile. Coincidentally, a good mate of mine has been consulting with the DPI about enclosure size standards for exhibitors and we had a SVL vs TTL discussion just a few days ago, for he is trying to convince them to base enclosure size standards on SVL rather than TTL.

Captive monitors, especially the large species, can exceed their wild maximum length. I have seen some massive captive Lace Monitors that would easily have exceeded the expected wild length maximum of just over 2 m.

Just out of curiosity, and off topic, you wouldn't have any photos, would you? I've never seen a captive lacie that size and would be interested in seeing photographs. I'm not having a go, I'd just like to see photos of a huge lacie. I've seen a couple of huge wild ones and the odd huge captive but know how rare it is for lace monitors to reach the oft published maximum size for the species. Consequently it's always a delight to see photographs of one that has.

[julespython]

ok so here is my tank. im really keen on a brevicauda but how woulld i go about getting one.
also im going to the reptile expo on saturday in melbourne so what should i expect to find there? perhaps find the small monitor im looking for?