Check this out!!!

[Morelia_man]

nice argument there CC. well the care of the animal would really come down to the percentage wouldn't it?? eg. 75%GTP 25% jungle. therefore you would more keep it at the GTPs requirments. well i guess it should work in theory.

cheers
charles

[Greebo]

I can certainly understand view point John.
Unlike some people I realise it is possible for people to have different opinions with out having to contradict them.I think the bulk of your argument is aimed more at the dodgy breeders than the actual hybrids themselves.
I think that the pure strains will always be maintained. But who is to say what is pure now compared to 200 years ago?It's a complicated issue.

Yep absolutely right Greebs,
Its the shonky dealers and breeders that ruin the hobby not so much the animals themselves.No doubt purebreds would still be maintained by younger,newer generation of keepers and those less fortunate to afford the higher priced hybrids but the decrease would be dramatic (any decrease is a loss IMO).My statement was more or less an IF possibility.BUT 1 that is quite reasonable as has happened in regards to the fish and bird hobby.As said earlier I totally admire the chongles but would never partake in breeding them myself for the above mentioned reasons.I would rather spend the next 10-20 years trying to perfect a similar looking pure Jungle that can then be sold as such.Also my optimistic look at released hybrids could be described in the same manner as exotics.

I too wasn't trying to contradict or start arguments etc more letting those know my opinion from 1st hand experience in other hobbies.

[Brodie]

Hey,
I am not trying to start a huge discussion (like what happens on australianherps all the time) . But I guess in my last post I didnt really explain myself, I guess it kind of extends on Greebs and MM's views a bit. What I mean is yes they are 'gods' creatures, and we should keep them as natural as possible. I think that we should show a little respect to these creatures. Sure a little bit of hybridisation is OK, but if you have a look at the US snakes they have 'designer boas' and such things, it is not that bad really, but how many animals suffered from deformity or even death to get those 'perfect colours'.
anyway that is my 2c worth
Also these views are my own and I know a lot of people have different ideals and beliefs and these are just mine.
Cheers

This will probably never happen with snakes but I once saw a picture of some stupid fool of a cat breeder in the US with a cat that had it's legs facing the wrong way so it could not work.

[Fangs]

Well I'm all for it.I want to cross legless lizards with sheoak skinks to give the poor unfortunate so and sos the ability to walk again.Nothing wrong with that

[NoOne]

Hybrids occur in the wild in some areas (port macquarie intergrades) but these intergrades area a pure species in themselves and have been for hundreds of years.
To think that anyone could create a new species from a few cross breedings is foolish. Hybrids in the wild only survive if nature intends them to, where as we can keep them alive under perfect conditions.

Cross breeding is done for money, GTPs and jungles are two of the most popular snakes around and it would make sense two combine the two if your out to make money and sell the perfect python.

It has already come to the point where some captive species purity can be questioned e.g childreni. These were being cross bred all over the place a few years back and still are, most are being sold as pure childreni.
It is illegal in some states to cross bred reptiles and IMO it should be in all states.

If dogs did descend from one species then that is not cross breeding more like inbreeding as it takes two different species to have a cross breed. Now after many years for domesitcation and selective breeding there are different species.

The question you have to ask is what's wrong with the snakes we have?
Why must people try to improve something that took evolution millions of years to perfect?

[pythonss]

well what can you say. first i also find this treatment of animals offensive. there is no way that this particular pairing could ever happen in the wild so the natural hibridisation goes right out the window.
it also remains to be seen wheather these offspring will ever be able to breed ( mules ) nature makes this happen for very valid reasons also.
lets talk about the dollar value.. you see in the states people invested great amounts of money in gtp is we are also doing here now. in the states they are now worth very little because of the ongoing rape of areas ( which by the way isnt in there own back yard ) and the flooding of wild caught animals into the american trade as well as sucseefull breeding programes with in as well. Now they are looking to find ways of getting a dollar return on the animals they have brought. hibrid matings are being done for money, not sceince, not for study. This is yet another example to show us why we have the regulations in regard to keeping reptiles in this contry. We all at times get frustrated by these laws and i have been as guilty as anyone with regards to this. But the longer i have involvment in this hobby and see what happens else where the more thankfull i am becoming of them.
As for the keeping requirments for these hibrids that john has had the insight to think about.. You know how the care sheet will come about. they will learn from the animals that suffer. While the pic is very much a visual jungle you could nearly garentee that the internals are very much gtp oreintated so which care should be given. not body knows for sure untill animals die from doing it the wrong way. and yes i know that this was also done with origanal keeping of most species of reptiles but we are way past the stage of killing reptiles for our own satisfaction. ( well we should be ).
Maybe my views are a little one eyed but im a purist. always have and will be. and i make no apoligies for that. The day that this sort of discusting behaviour by reptile keepers in this contry is legal is the day i will give it away. The way i look at it as do others especally reputable bird keepers is that when keeping native wild life of any type is that you are helping preserve the existance of the species for ever. Maybe not the way nature intended but nature never intended for species to become needlessly exstinct for our pleasure.
Feel free to have a shot as this topic also sits hand in hand for the people that feel they shold also be able to keep exotics in this contry anyway just some of my views..Could go on about this one for weeks..lol

cheers paul.

[Hawkeye]

Don't hold back Paul...tell us how you really feel

I have mixed feelings to a degree. I understand both sides of the argument and will play the devils advocate for a second:

If the species is Morelia spilota blah blah then technically they are the same species and therefore it is not true hybridisation (eg dingos being cross bred with dogs are 2 separate species and this is hybridisation) but different dog types is not. Also is the fact that some species do not interbreed often a matter of locality? Bredls to take an example are so far isolated from other carpets that they do not have the chance to interbreed. This also leads to the argument of is bredl a separate species because the isolation has caused it to develop into a 'new' species.

And interbreeding may not all be bad. A classic example of this may be crossing jungles and diamonds (ducks as Paul throws things at me ). Apart from the perceived colour issue wouldn't it be an advantage for the snake if you could breed out DPS in the diamond?

All that being equal I tend to agree that 'playing god' although can be done shouldn't be because it ends up with total uncertainty as to what you have and that diminishes the true stock. Also if hybrids get loose they may have an advantage over wild animals and this could lead to decimation of wild stock as they take over their habitat.

Cheers Hawkeye
PS: Jumps of soapbox and puts it into the cupboard for another year

[africancichlidau]

I have gone through all these arguments over the years on the fish forums, resulting in many bad feelings etc so I am gonna stay out of this one. I have left many fish boards over peoples attitudes to this sort of thing and I believe it has also had a bearing on my decision to get out of the aquarium hobby altogether. I have no intention of letting this happen in my herp hobby so am staying out of this discussion from hereon in.
Have fun with the topic guys, there is only one answer!

Ditto!
Similar reasons to why I left the aquarium hobby.

[Morelia_man]

good thinking african,
i am out of this argument from now on

cheers
charles

I wouldn't describe it as an argument or a debate as such more a topic that IMO should be talked about more often within the hobby.It is great to evaluate alot of members opinions on the subject and at the end of the day way up the pros and cons on the topic mentioned.It is also a good subject for those not knowing much about it to get a good idea of the possible outcomes that may arise with such a situation.With that said I can now rest my case knowing that the truth is out there.It was mentioned several times that theres many cons and only one pro (that pro being profits) within hybridisation.Possible 2nd pro would be overcoming DPS syndrome within Diamond pythons,but I feel that this dosn't come without downsides also and therfore I consider this also to be a con.Cons mentioned so far include health problems,breeding problems,the threat of being released and over running native species, protecting/saving native species within captivity &/or wild,
Market for native species,etc etc.

[Greebo]

"God, smod...I want my Monkey-boy!"

[Magpie]

Hhmm unsure myself on a lot of the issues here, but am definately anti hybrid. Two reasons:
1) I'ts too easy to sell a newbie a hybrid as a pure blood. Once this happens once or twice, the whole species becomes suspect. As mentioned with the childreni.
2) What happens to the ugly hybrids? Are we to believe that all hybrids look better then pure bloods, even that they all look decent? I reckon 50% of them would end up pig dog ugly. What ya gonna do with them?

[NoOne]

It's the sort of thing that could get out of hand very quickly, as Mags said newcomers often know nothing about hybrids and would buy them just so they can get there first snake. Then a few years later they may breed it with a pure specimen and sell the offspring as pure animals.
The chain continues.