Check this out!!!

[westaussie]

I gotta agree CC !

I think that if it were possible some people would like to breed, crossbreed, tamper & manipulate until they bred the first snake that had fur, 4 legs, a cold nose & chased the postman !

You cant beat "True Blue".

[astrobeka]

when it comes right down to it, all that matters is the health and wellbeing of the snake. as long as you have the knowlege and equipment to correctly care for your snake, it shouldn't matter.

[Simon_Archibald]

*^*

[lutzd]

This has been the most interesting thread I've read in a while! Thanks guys.

Personally, I love the colours and patterns on some of the hybrids I've seen (high "wow" factor), but the downside is greater than any aesthetic benefit, IMHO.

[byjungle]

I didnt mean to start a debate, but i think it is healthy to this forum to have one on this topis. Whetehr we like it or not, there are going to be hybrids, the question is i think, is how are we going to ensure that the hybrids stay as hybrids and dont pollute the pure specimens, if they are still pure? I remember Paul saying something about getting a jungle that threw off diamond hatchlings, which he got rid of because of this reason. I think we should adopt some method where by each animal has a labeling system that somehow links back to original animals or as far back to the originals as we can. I have no idea how this would be done though.

Regarding the pic i posted, IMO that is better than any green tree and jungle i have ever seen in the flesh. ( that is if the gtp/greentree was acurately represented in the picture.)

cheers
Mark

Just look at the dogs!
The only labelling system we could use (which would have to show prooven facts) would be pedigree papers such as used for dogs.This would then see the hobby go the same way as has done with dogs.Prices would rise on those species with papers,hybrids "mongrels" would be harder to sell and then we'd have breeders stuck with hatchlings they can't offload.They would then need to resort to either culling or releasing thier animals.Most animal keepers aka "animal lovers" are humane with all species of animals,so my bet would be majority would rather release the animals.And I have already described some typical outcomes of this happening.Just look at european carp,or redfin in our waterways.Look at rabbits in our farms etc.As mentioned before I would rather strive for a pure bloodline by inbreeding rather than cross breeding and aim for a snake that is similar to whatever I desired.IMO every body wants to make a quick buck but they dont want to work for it.I love competition! I would hate to breed the best snakes in Australia.I'd prefer to be the 2nd best breeder this then gives me something to compete against and therfore strive for.As an example I used to be involved with ANDRA racing for super street.When you have cars faster than your's and beating your's every event you seem to have more involvement with your hobby as your interests are progressing to catch up to the competitors.But if it was you winning every event there is no longer any fun anymore as you have achieved your ultimate goal.There for come non racing days there is no more upgrading carbies or injection etc etc you no longer have the interest of the hobby as you did when you were striving to achieve something.JMO

[byjungle]

Thanks CC, i didnt think of those aspects of labeling. I too am striving to breed some really nice jungles, but am a bit scared of the hybrids out there, i mean even Paul, who obviously has many years experience with jungles, bought a jungle that had diamond blood without knowing, he did the right thing and doesnt use it anymore or got rid of it hopefully to someone who wont breed it to a jungle.( correct me if i am wrong Paul and ill will delete this post) I just think there should be someway to track what we are buying before it is too late. In the US i am certain that many of thier jungles are crossed with diamonds, maybe it is just selective breeding, but many adults have diamond looking features to me, JMO.

cheers
mark

[byjungle]

What i might do is start from where i am now and label a juvenile jungle i breed for example MSJM1JF30301, so that would be MS (my initials) JM1 (adultmale no1) JF3 (adult female no3) 03 (year they hatched) 01 (hatchling labeled as 1). Looking back at that ID it looks hell confusing, but what i am trying to get at is a way someone who buys from me and then sells to whoever etc, can trace back to me and get pics of adults and hatchling pics etc. I am sure there has to be a better way of labeling but it is just an example. I know it is easy tampered with but it is more for my records. Just a thought. I think US ppl adopt a similar id system for some species.

cheers
mark

The problem here is non responsible keepers.Sure if we hybridised in moderation and even labelled such as hybrids no problem.But there is too many members in the hobby that would try to sell as a pure bred in order to make a quick dollar.There would also be people naming the species with a new blood line such as EG: gtp x jungle "tiger lilly jungles" (due to the black barring over a greeny/yellowy background).Purchasers then think they have an awsum fazed pure jungle.They too would then breed and sell as a pure bred due to either not knowing or not caring and the chain continues.(we have already seen this with intergrades and childreni as well as jungles and diamonds).I like your labelling idea.It would more suit the actual breeder than any purchasers but I think its a good idea for your own knowledge.EG:If a customer comes back several months later with say a problem with the hatchling and you do not realise what purchase he made,the id number can then inform you of the parents etc.You could then maybe relate the problem back to them.
I think I may adopt a similar system as I sell my stock with a certificate I print up on the computer (my way of garunteeing quality) lol.

[byjungle]

Hey CC, great idea the certificate thing, do you mind if i copy?lol. Also let me know what sort of system you go with, i would like to copy it as well, hopefully making it more universal.I am just a copycat!lol

cheers
Mark

No worries at all Mark,
(infact im copying your numbering program lol).
I have to go down the road atm but when I get back I'll put a pic of my "certificate of quality" up for you all to see.

Heres an example of the certificates I make.I also use these for products purchased such as enclosures etc.I use a personal code to represent each individual reptile,a photo of the individual,a date of purchase and my contact details such as phone number and website.

http://www.aussiepythons.com/modules...view_photo.php


The code number for each product is as follows.
BHPm1f203 hatchling M05
BHP=Black headed python
m1f2 =parents=male 1 x female 2
03=year 2003
hatchling M05 = hatchling 05 (male)

With every clutch I will label each individual M=male,F=female or U=unsexed and number them from 01-60 (depending on how many) and mark this on there containers in the shelving rack.I can then easily recognise each individual through records kept on MSA herp.I will also print out all these records of feeds and feed weights,sheds,lengths and weights of the individuals,and this will also be given to the purchaser along with the certificate of quality.

In the case of animals that are bred in colonies or kept together year round the code would look like this.
BD1.303 hatchling U
BD=bearded dragon
1.3=bred from a colony of 1 male & 3 females
03=year 2003
Hatchling U=hatchling unsexed

NOTE:
A clutch of hatchlings kept together with no records being recorded will not have a hatchling number,as can be seen in the Bearded dragon example.I will also substitute hatchling with juvenile,sub adult or adult depending on age of species.

[byjungle]

Hey CC, that is a great certificate, there is no way i could do that on computer, i am shocking!Just a suggestion, why dont you put something in the ID that refers to you. Because if someone else usings the same system with example blackheads, you could well have the same id on 2 different snakes.

cheers
mark

I could do that.Without the actual certificate there would be no way to tell for sure if it was 1 of mine or not anyway.So for me to take credit (or blame lol) I would need to see the certificate itself.This is where I will advise any purchasers that if they sell the snake they are to give the new owner the certificate as well.Hoping eventually that happy purchasers may want more of my stock and they would then have my details.But I may label them EG: JARBHPm1f203 hatchling M05.

[byjungle]

yeah good point. I was more thinking of if they were advertised again after you sold them, that this labeliing system would striaght away identify the snake to have originally been from you, but i get how anyone could use your id to label a different snake, if only everyone was honest, lol.It would also cut the size of the ad down, in a small amount of space, it identifies who bred it, what adults were used, what is the sex and what year they were hatched.Imagine if everyone could identify withs this labeling, the trading post or newspaper ads would be one liners and thus save everyone money and time.

cheers