Check this out!!!

True.
I have just edited my template copy (which is identical to the example certificate but has no date,species code or pic.I am going to edit the code smaller by using H for hatchling,Y for yearling,J for juvenile,S for subadult,A for adult etc and also place JAR at the front.
EG:
JARCCAM
John's Aussie Reptiles Bred coastal carpet adult male.

JARCCM1F303HF17
John's Aussie Reptiles bred coastal carpet
male 1 x female 3 pairing
born 2003
hatchling female number 17

[Greebo]

In the spirit of a debate I would like to point out some problems with the argument for the affrimative.
One of the cons is the release of hybrids into the wild which would become a problem or new dominant species.
However, another con is that hybrids would never survive in the wild and even if they did there would be a fair chance that they would be sterile (mules) and not able to produce offspring.
That seems a bit contradictory to me.

This thread is a good example of a discussion where people have differing view points.Normally by now the thread has degraded into personal attacks that really have nothing to do with the original topic.
Maybe some of our members are growing up......(wipes a tear from his eye)

[Brodie]

How do we know that they will die? ( I am curious as I dont know) Surely if they are released into a certain area they may survive, hasnt anyone seen Jurassic Park - 'Nature Always Finds A Way' . Also are all Hybrids unable to breed? If so why?
Cheers

I think the cons mentioned are more what if possibility.
What if they are sterile (mules)
What if they escape or get released
What if they over run native wild life
What if they get a better market than natives
What if CC decides to cross a water with a taipan and sell them to newbies as pure bred waters.LOL
I too am amazed at no personal attacks yet so I am hereby going to call my own mumma a hoe....

[Morelia_man]

well at first i thought that cross breeding was no biggy. but now i am starting to think that we shouldn't do it. i would have to say that it is all CC's fault to.
i think that alot of people should read this thread so that they get an idea of what can happen to an animal if you do cross breed.

cheers
charles

[Hawkeye]

He he we made Greebs cry

I think the argument was Greebs that the problems with hybridisation may come up with the problems of.etc etc not that the two may happen together or that either will happen at all. The issue is that no-one knows what will happen if we do start to dabble in hybridization.

But to get onto another point.

How many people who are against hybridization back breed family members to get good traits in their snakes?

(Dons helmet and dives for cover)

Cheers Hawkeye

[byjungle]

I intend to line breed my jungles. I emailed the Barkers and they reckon there is no proof whatsoever that line breeding produces tail kinks or associated deformalties. i suppose if there was a problem with line breeding, we would have seen the problem arise in the US, where some captive populations can be traced back to a handful of specimens. Just my thoughts.


cheers
M.S

[NoOne]

I agree BJ, theres no proof that line breeding reptiles is harmful.
Thats where most wierd color mophs in the US came from.

I agree inbreeding/line breeding is pretty much common practise.Majority of keepers buy pairs or trios from the same clutch in an attempt to later on breed thier animals.As suggested there is no proof that line breeding gives any health risks or deformalities in anyway.

[Hawkeye]

Oh but there is plenty of proof in other species. It is just that species that have been inbred and have very high turn over rates (eg fruit flies the favourites of scientists) and even rats and mice all start having problems if they are too inbred such as tumours. It is also a bad genetic trend as developing species with very similar DNA has the problem of if their is a virus that attacks a certain part of the DNA then the whole line will get wiped out (see the people who are genetically immune to HIV as a prime example ot sickle cell recessive trait as a protective feature against malaria.).

Closer to home take purebred cats and dogs vs mongrels. The purebred animals have a lot more medical problems such as cardiac abnormalities and other genetically based medical problems.

I think we haven't seen a lot in the herp world yet as most species have not been inbred for long enough and also most breeders who have 'deformed' animals destroy them and don't advertise that they have inferior genetic strains (pure speculation here).

Maybe we just need to wait to reap the seeds that we have sown.

Cheers Hawkeye

[lutzd]

It seems to be a basic rul of nature, from what I've read, that you shouldn't inbreed any animal. I can't see that snakes would be an exception from this rule.

I've certainly seen it in mouse colonies! I allowed my earlier mouse colonies to inbreed, and the resultant incidents of cancerous growths was amazingly high.

I think I read somewhere that breeding first level siblings was acceptable (although with slight risk of deformity, etc.) but any further inbreeding had an unacceptably high risk of further genetic deteriation.

Then again I could be totally wrong..... :wink:

[pythonss]

just two quick comments...
yes mark. the jungle in question is no longer with us, the vet didnt know how to strilize her so we could give her away as a pet with out risk of her being breed again, so she got a needle.

with the inbreeding topic. if you are going to work with a line , this is how desirable traits are persuded. how ever strict control and good record keeping must be kept. first time brother and sister is fine but the off spring from them should be put to a outcross in our opinion. same deal with mother/son and father/daughter.
at this stage we have never seen or heard of any deformatiys from this style of breeding but yes if you just kept the family group mating over extended periods you would have to think the deformitys would surface eventually.
cheers paul.

[Magpie]

The whole inbreeding thing is something I have looked at a bit. Depending on the source you use, some people will say one generation of sibling breeding then bring in new blood. Others say up to 32 generations before it is a problem. Most sources accept that line breeding (parents to offspring / granchildren / great grandchildren) is not a biggie. It can be done for multiple generations with no problems. My mice are highly inbred (started with 5 sibling)and am yet to get a single cancer / tumor out of probably 1000 or more babies. White lab rats are meant to be genetically identical ( they breed siblings for 30 odd generations to achieve this) and yet they can breed without any big problems. No matter what you choose to believe on the matter, one thing is agreed by all - A single out breed (breeding to unrelated or distantly related animal) will fix it. One single out breed brings you back to the same genetic diversity as what you started with. So you line breed or in breed for 5 generations to get the colour / pattern you want, out breed 5 of the offspring then re breed the new offspring that result and get a large percentage of what you want. the problem with dogs comes when 50 years later, they are so inbred, there is no possibility of an outbreed. This is due to poor management of the breed, nothing else. We have a Standard Schnauser who is a pure breed. After a lot of consultation with breeders, attending shows, reading and talking to owners, we decided to go with this breed bacuase we liked their charracteristics and they do not have any inbred medical problems. Due to good management of the breed, they have the same health risks as a mongrel.
Anyway, My opinion (and you know it's right coz it's mine) is that properly managed, in breeding is cool but hybrids are bad for the snake, bad for the hobby and bad for the species in the long term.

[Brodie]

HEHE, This thread has had so many changes in topic. Hey hawkeye, you sound just like my Bio teacher - you wouldn't be a DR. or nurse by any chance would ya or a vet maybe?

[Franco]

I think that a good example would be the case of atlantic salmon. Salmon farms which have been inbreeding stock for decades are finding that in their attempt to breed a 'super fish' i.e fast growth rates and superior flesh quality, they have produced fish which are much more susceptible to diseases. Not only this but it has also been found that when farmed salmon escape, they hybridize with wild salmon and cause all sorts of problems. The salmon that have been bred for generations have lost their innate ability of where to spawn and mate with the wild salmon passing down this negative trait. It is thought that over the next few years that we will really begin to see the consequenses of this hybridization i.e loss in wild salmon numbers.

Sorry everyone, I know this is a little off topic but still think it can be related back to the topic in some way.

Franco