Check this out!!!

[lutzd]

Great discussion!

That's interesting, Magpie. Maybe I had a bad genetic strain or something, but I had real problems in this area. Once I switched to only breeding unrelated pairs, the problem went away. Go figure....

[Artie]

Yeah Franco, I saw that documentary on T V some time ago.
Very interesting, but somewhat worrying.
The problem for the future is, that there might only be one type of Salmon left.
One should not fiddle with nature; the same goes for all that food tampering as well, i.e. genetically engineering etc.
Artie

[Artie]

Hi Magpie, nice to hear you have a Schnauzer, (standard) we lost ours recently.

We chose a Schnauzer for a simular reason. We heard that it is about the oldest dog on record, not tampered with, going back as far as the 1400 AD. Pretty bloody long time.

That of course not being the only reason; we just love the look of them and their temperament, and ours was very easy to train.

In Germany they were actually bred as ratters – good for catching snake food he,he.

The miniature schnauzer has a bit of miniature poodle and some terrier, and the Giant Schnauzer has bull-mastiff and poodle, but the standard is the original version.

I hope I didn’t get too carried away here.

[Hawkeye]

Lab rats are not exactly genetically identical but they are all autosomal recessive (ie if there is an infusion of another genetic strain with an autosomal dominant feature) it will show up immediately. This I know very well as I did my thesis on transplantation immunology and we had to have genetically identical rat strains of various forms so we could create antibodies against specific genetic markers. The inbreeding that we had was 32nd generation of back breeding and the rats were all genetically tested to determine that they were identical.

They weren't really around long enough to get too many problems (ie most were used prior to their first birthday) but several of the breeding stock were scarificed because of tumour formation.

Brodie I am a medical doctor NOT your biology teacher

Cheers Hawkeye

[Magpie]

With regards to hybridising diamonds to get rid of DPS, that is not gonna work. That's a bit like saying you are gonna cross an australian with an italian to get rid of heart disease. DPS is a factor of how the snake is kept, not an inherited disease. It comes from treating a cool climate snake like a tropical snake.

[Hawkeye]

Hmm....if that is the case (just being hypothetical here) why don't other species of carpet have the same problem (eg Murray Darlings?). Also your analogy is not quite correct (you do alter your heart risk with genetics as well as environmental factors).
But I find this a fascinating topic.......keep it going!

Cheers Hawkeye

PS: Maggie where did you get your info re Diamonds as I thought the cause of DPS hadn't been completely sorted out yet?

[Magpie]

PS: Maggie where did you get your info re Diamonds as I thought the cause of DPS hadn't been completely sorted out yet?

Well, it hasn't really, nor has it been shown to exist. Who says M.D.'s don't get M.D. syndrome? They are no where near as common as diamonds in captivity yet. To my understanding, those diamonds who have suffered from DPS have been exposed to constant high temps and rapid feeding. If someone knows of a Diamond that has suffered DPS when kept in conditions that replicate their natural environment, please tell me, post the details (in fact, if anyone has first hand experience of DPS, please post)

[africancichlidau]

Yes indeed, just like Maggie I'd like to hear some first hand experiences with this. It might even convince me to give Diamonds a try I am getting close to doing so anyway

[almaron]

Hmm. Interesting topic(s).

I'm not a big fan of hybrids, but I'm hardly a purest. I mean we all "play god" when we keep and breed animals. We don't just put a bunch of critters together and let them sort it out like happens in nature, right? You pick your best animals, with the traits you want to propagate, and you try to breed out what you don't want. That's not really what happens in nature. I mean, go look at two diamonds in the wild, and they have different characteristics. Which one is more "pure"?

I look at a snake, or other animal, and I either like it or I don't. It is what it is. Still, I wouldn't buy or breed hybrids. Not my cup of tea. I like the idea of knowing what I'm buying. And I like the idea of keeping a captive population of "pure" whatever. But I also like morphs. We all know that albinos, for example, don't work real well in nature, but they are naturally occurring, and I see nothing wrong with breeding for color/pattern morphs. Even if it is "playing god."

I would agree that there are plenty of reasons why hybrids are a bad idea, but I also think some of those reasons are a little exaggerated. I understand the "purest" out there. Even agree for the most part. But then again, let's be honest. On some level we all like certain snakes more than others because they look cool to us. I'm not ashamed. I'm shallow like that. Sure that ain't a great reason to go screwing up the gene pool. But I'd bet good money that every one of us, if we were looking at two sibling snakes. One with really pretty, vibrant colors, distinct markings, etc. And the other a normal, plain, average, specimen. Both same price. We'd all buy the first one. Why? Not because it represents the species. Not because we care about preserving what is found in nature. Exactly the opposite. We'd pick it because it's unique.

To the original post in this thread, I think it's a pretty cool looking snake, no matter what it is. Hope it's owner enjoys it for what it is, and doesn't turn it loose on they world to devastate every last pristine ecosystem, and upset the fragile balance of the natural world. That would suck!

[grahamh]

G'day David

you haven't changed a bit - same old patch - really nice to see you posting again. Hope the family all got back ok (or at least will be soon). I've missed your input.

Hybrids are all part of nature it's just that nature sometimes gets a kick or poke in an unexpected direction. We are part of the same nature and we can cause modifications - it's still part of nature. The very fact that two species can produce hybrid offspring indicates that it could have happened without our help.

I like horses not many of todays horses or dogs for that matter bear much resemblance to the original.

The snake is cool and so is a standard 'what ever that is' Diamond Python.

G

I just reread this and I think I'm on drugs - and they're not working - still I know what I mean.

[Alexahnder]

hi david

[pythonss]

hi grahamh

i can kind of see what your saying and to some extent that is true.
but........ if we stay will origanal post this could never happen in the wild

lets look at the facts...the gtp line was wild caught from indonesia...the jungle line wild caught from australia. these to lines have no chance of acidently hibratising in the wild.

yes there are natural ones and the diamond coastal are a great example.

and if its natures way to have hibrads why is it that we feel we should be helping that process.?
actually we arnt. we dont look after the natural hibrids. we insteed try and produce our own. and for what reasons.
i can give 2.. $$$$$$$$ and ego. and really neither reason dose anything to help natures way..lol
anyway will leave it at that..
cheers paul.

Ditto!

[grahamh]

Hi Paul / CC

Don't get me wrong - I actually don't much like the idea of man initiated hybridisation. I much prefer things the way they are without the great clodd hoppers of the human 'Creator'. I'd actually never want to buy a hybrid as to me it seems to be an oddity (although they can be attractive) and I don't promote the idea of breeding for fashion.

If someone was looking for a home for one I'd probably help out as the snake is not at fault but I don't have any interest in that area.

Although unlikely to occur naturally there's nothing to stop and exotic GTP being released (or escaping) into the wild where Jungles are found and then maybe the mating could occur. This is just another reason for not allowing exotic into the country.

In theory this could be taken further. Is it right to have snakes that are not native to one's own locality in your possesion. If one of my Bredli was to escape into the local Diamond Python community I'm pretty sure that it would survive around my place (the temp extremes in Alice Springs are not that different from here). This could start a new hybrid type that may well out compete the existing Diamonds.

Anyway - I like things to be as normal/natural as possible and I also love my Olives and Bredlis (not to mention the lovely SNAP! who's being missed due to cool down).

I also saw a picture of a red tailed boa the other day and it's just gogeous but definately EXOTIC and not wanted round here.



Graham

[almaron]

Hey. Thanks G-man and Alex. Good to get back into the swing of things.

So far so good with the family. Younger brother just got married in Denmark on the 4th to a his German girlfriend. They had a daughter in January. He was in hospital for intestinal surgery when his unit deployed, and has been on restricted duty for a few months. He just shipped to Bagdad two days ago. Wedding had a lot to do with the deployment. Making things legit just in case. Older brother is still at sea somewhere in the neighborhood.

Anyway, all is cool around here. Just been a busy summer so far. Way too much going on, and way too little time. Story of my life.