free handling elapids

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by Nbates

There are lots of people who free handle their vens, They trust the snake and the snake obviously trusts them.

A mate of mine is a specialist Elapid keeper.
He has been keeping and handling dangerous snakes for over 20 years. Yes he freehandles, and yes, he's been in intensive care a few times. A few people on here know him, JasonL's a good friend of his. He says you cant trust ANY snake, no matter how quite it seems.

[mysnakesau]

That's exactly right Vincent. No one can EVER say that a snake won't bite. Can you imagine an elapid grabbing hold of you in a feed response? Try getting that off in a hurry.

[Vincent]

Originally Posted by mysnakesau

Can you imagine an elapid grabbing hold of you in a feed response? Try getting that off in a hurry.

That would be funny in a sick kind of way.
Thats exactly what happened to a mate of mine. At least he can laugh about it.

[salebrosus]

Originally Posted by Vincent

A mate of mine is a specialist Elapid keeper.
He has been keeping and handling dangerous snakes for over 20 years. Yes he freehandles, and yes, he's been in intensive care a few times. A few people on here know him, JasonL's a good friend of his. He says you cant trust ANY snake, no matter how quite it seems.

Yes, i know this person too, a brilliant guy. Hopefully some of his animals will be on display at the expo in May just like they were last year.

[python blue]

i wouldnt even try to free handle elapids at the recent sofar expo in newcastle there was a man there doing a show on reptiles he was free handling a reb bellied black snake its head went onto his hand it stayed there for a couple of minutes before it opened its mouth and tryed to bite him from where ryan harvery and i were we thought it tagged him and the snake looked so calm and placid

[cracksinthepitch]

A bit of a side Question guys, Would it be safer to house an elapid in a cage with a removable lid rather than a sliding door at the front? I thought this might be safer to hook the snake from above than at the same level. Cheers

[stusnake]

I guess what we have to remember is that ALL animals can/will bite. As many have already stated even the quietest and most amendable of pythons can have its day, as can vens. Ive worked with many different ven species from red bellies, right through to Taipans. Many can be very "text book" in there behavior, but there are some that no matter how long youve worked with that particular snake will on occasion surprise you. There have been quite a few vens which could easily be free handled, but I will simply not do it. For me I dont see a need for it, no ones going to give me a medal for it, and dispite being in control of myself, reasonable control of the snake in question, no one can ever be in control of events around them which may suddenly change a snakes behavior and response ie- loud noise, gust of wind, smell, other movement around snake or handler, etc.

I know its a bit of a rant and ramble. I guess, all Im trying to say is that no amount of experience, confidence, etc can allow us to predict/control what happens ahead of us. Im sure if we could then we would never have to worry about snakes bite.

[Aslan]

Originally Posted by Miss_Croft

If you know what you are looking for – it is easy to free handle nearly all the Aussie snakes. If you lift an Eastern Brown, Tiger or Red Bellied Back off the ground from around the tail – it will not be able to strike at you. If you do the same with a python – you will get bitten. That is why they say it is easier to get bitten by a python.

Tell that to Neville Burns, a great snake man, who is now missing a finger as a result of a RBB held by the tail...

It is EXTREMELY easy for an elapid to turn back on it's body and strike your hand. John Cann will tell you that as a snake handler, if an elapid wants to bite you it will bite you - the snake is always better than the handler in that regard...

I have seen elapids free handled a few times - I certainly don't understand taking the risk myself. As JasonL has stated, the risk is very hard to justify. One mistake and your life is ruined.

The guy I know who freehandles has given some of the most informative talks on elapids I have heard - in saying that though, they would have been just as informative had he been standing in a pit with a hook giving them...

[dazza101]

I used to free handle all my snakes wether it be a taipan or a brown. The most calmest would have to be western taipans, never had a problem with them.
I had a large red adder once, that I free handled all the time (when necessary). I had it out showing some friends and when I knelt down to put it back in his enclosure (it was down the bottom of the bank) it struct me and got a good hold of the side of my knee.
Put me through hell for the next couple of days but I live to tell the story. Want more info let me know.

[eipper]

HI all,

CAn't come back on you...my a*se if you grab them by the tail.....I have kept, worked with and caught many elapids and I can tell you with no doubt that Pseudonaja, Notechis, Austrelaps and Pseudechis can come back and nail you.....Ask just how many people get a tiger attached to their wrist just from what you are saying......I had a 5 ft Eastern Brown when I was 13 swing past my ear and hit the roof of the snake room. Tailing snakes is not a risk free procedure and anyone working with elapids extensively will tell you that.

As for free handling..I have done it on more times than I care to remember(and will continue to) but their are plenty of different ways of freehandling too. The risks along with it are dependant on many factors including the snakes temperament, snake species, snake size, keeper experience, methods employed etc etc.

I must admit I wonder how people whom don't work with elapids are able to make an informed decision about the viability of elapid handling techniques.

Cheers,
Scott Eipper

[Tatelina]

Originally Posted by Miss_Croft

Many of the older snake handlers only know one way to handle them – I believe it is what you call free handling. I have watched them bend down and pick up Tigers, Browns and many other types.

Red Bellied Backs are one of the more placid snakes. I have seen one guy who while driving somewhere with his girlfriend (Who is terrified of snakes) spotted a red bellied back on the side of the road. He stopped picked it up and placed it on the floor (Between girlfriend’s feet – she left him soon after) and drove home with it. He released it in his shed to reduce the mice population or something.

What I am trying to say is you really have to aggravate a red bellied back if you want to get bitten.

Copper head is a little more likely to bite. I have heard of one guy showing the snake for a documentary and it bit him on the thumb nail (Venom flowed down both sides of his thumb).

Eastern Brown shake can be a little more excitable – I have seen them striking at me when I was well over 20 meters from him. That was a nasty snake – but easy to catch and was released about 100 meters – relocated from the back door.

If you know what you are looking for – it is easy to free handle nearly all the Aussie snakes. If you lift an Eastern Brown, Tiger or Red Bellied Back off the ground from around the tail – it will not be able to strike at you. If you do the same with a python – you will get bitten. That is why they say it is easier to get bitten by a python.

And can I ask Miss New York....just how many times you have handled these different types of animals before?

[jase75]

Free handling Elapids is like playing Russian Roulette, you mite get away with it once, you mite get away with it 10 times, but if its sum thing u do on a regular basis, no matter how "quite and placid" the snake mite seem to be, eventually u will get bitten.I just hope u live to learn the lesson. Iv free handled Eastern Browns, Tigers and RBBs and never had a problem but i know each time i do it wat a risk i am taking.

[TrueBlue]

Miss Croft, i dont know where you got the info that by tailing an elapid it cant stike at you,??????, cause its a complete load of rubbish. They can strike at you from there, or crawl up their body to grab you no worries, and in very little time.

Ive been silly enough to free handle elapids in my younger days, both taipans, copperheads, tigers, collets, spotted blacks, adders, muglas, rbb, etc. I even raised an eastern brown snake that you could do absolutely anything with, a member of this site ended up with it and used to do the same, ah Brian. lol.
Even had a couple of free handlable roughies. And yes i trusted alot of them more than most pythons.
Ive had tigers and copperheads from the same clutches that id bred and raised, where some you could do anything with yet others you could hardly walk past their tank with out them having a go.
The trick is to know your animals well enough, but in saying that as i said it was in my young silly days, i donot do it any more, as sooner or later something is bound to happen, law of averages.

[AustHerps]

Originally Posted by micko

I have heard that most elapids are easier to handle than most pythons.I am told as hatchlings they are flighty but dont often bite.I have a mate with a red belly black wich he free handles all the time and he siad he trusts his RBB more than most of his pythons.Do you agree with his thaughts?Also what elapids do you have that are handable?some pics would be great also.

Despite this thread being quite old I guess a reply to the original post isn't out of order...

Pythons and elapids are very different animals, and it's more than venom glands that separate the two. They move differently, hold differently, ride hooks differently, respond to tailing differently, climb differently, possess different muscular structures, and, to hazard a guess - I'd say they think differently too.

To completely 'trust' a snake is somewhat foolish. But to 'know' a snake, I think, is possible. Each individual is exactly just that - Individual. It's not hard to see they have good days and bad days - Some days they'll be active, others they'll barely move, some days they'll leap on their prey as if they'd not had a meal in 3 months, and then other times they'll nonchalantly mosey over to their prey and proceed without any real effort. To 'trust' that a snake is having one of it's 'good' days is foolish, but to observe and make a judgement call is not. One might know his best friend like the back of his hand - but he can never truly know what mood they'll be in when he sees them. Just like the 'opposites' previously mentioned - On one day, a snake may hang from it's holders hand without a care in the world, and on the next, it might decide that the owner poses a threat (and come flying up at his face like there's no tomorrow. To 'Miss_Croft' - either you're having us on, or you're an idiot.)

As Scott mentioned, there are many factors and variables to take into account when assessing the risks of freehandling. I have a few critters which I would generally class as 'handleable' - but that doesn't mean I reach into their enclosures and rip them out at a million miles an hour without first making a few educated predictions as to what responses are to follow. I also have a few vens that I generally class as somewhat 'unstable' - but they too have their better days and, what can I say - I'm a hands-on kind of keeper.


Cheers,
Aaron.

[pythonrockchik1]

Yep you can never be too sure with any animal, or person lol

Some very experienced keepers may be fine with free handling their elapids such as rbbs and tigers, but I know i still wouldn't risk it personally hehe

Species I ESPECIALLY wouldn't tempt fate with would include taipans and browns!! No way mate