Gorgeous Death Adders! Urururururur!

[olivehydra]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

Olive: yeah, that's how they got the first part of their common name (next you'll be asking how they got their specific name )

What pictures would you like to see? I've done the full bodies and closeups, any requests? The Djarra pictures were taken with a Nikon 4600, the Barkly pictures with my old Nikon, which was from the same range of Nikons and had an identical lens.

I hazard a guess that they are not found in Antarctica, but are they not the most southern of the adders??? I grew up in Canberra and we found them there. I dont know??
Closeup pics are my fav, but if you're offering, a pic or two of adder enclosures would also be of interest I dont suppose you had the camera handy when you were driving home from the airport??? Pm those if you did :wink:

[Sdaji]

Antarctica means anti arctic (the north), which makes sense. antarcticus hasa similar meaning, but is an adjective, not a noun. I suppose anti north is just a fancy way of saying south

The enclosures are pretty boring, they have water bowls and for the first time I'm keeping snakes on breeder's choice (that's what they were on before I got them, I figured I'd have a go with them). Funnily enough, whenever I drive down that road I reach for my camera, because the view is quite picturesque. The roads are lined with palm trees and there is a great view of the silhouette of the Melbourne CBD directly ahead (between the palm trees). I actually fetched my camera and was holding it, then thought I might as well not bother this time as I have a heap of shots of that view. It was moments after I'd replaced my camera that I spotted the free spirited jogger! I'm not sure whether I should be happy or sad about it!

[herpnadel]

i found a death adder out front of my chicks house on coffin bay sa i diddnt no hey were even here i was wrapped to cee it laying there i wonted to pick it up but didnt cos only had my bare hands

[herpnadel]

what other vens do you got and pics pls

[olivehydra]

OK, time for the big questions..... you can only have one or the other, waters or adders?
Serious question... I have read many things on venemoids but have often wondered if folk who who keep vens believe their charges inject venom when feeding on dead prey, thus the school of thought that venom helps with the digestive process, and thus just another reason against voids. Probably very hard to judge I would imagine, but if feeding dead prey, do you get strike and release behaviour or do they just tuck in? Probably a seperate thread so ignore if you wish :wink:

[Sdaji]

Water Pythons over Adders, no question there.

I have no doubt at all that they envenomate dead prey. I think you can often get some idea of how much venom they put in, as I said earlier in the thread, my female Barkly seems particularly keen to pump a lot in. Whether or not this is important in digestion, I don't really know, however, it is quite clear that they are perfectly capable of digesting their food without venom. My guess is that venom would aid digestion, but if it isn't there, they'll just produce slightly more gastric enzymes to compensate. Since venom is 'expensive' to produce, this should give the snake a 'net cost', in fact, since venom is primarily designed to kill/immobilise, not to digest, the gastric enzymes are probably a more efficient way of going about it, so the venomoid snakes are likely at an advantage, purely looking at things from a physiological point of view. Of course, this is more speculation than anything else and purely from a digestive point of view I'd be inclined to leave snakes as they are, simply because of the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' rule of thumb which will generally guide us safely through life.

You'd expect that they'd be capable of digesting food without venom, just in case for some reason they need to, and the empirical evidence confirms it. I must say, I feel somewhat comforted knowing that my snakes are unaltered.

The venomoid debate seems to be really raging lately, I'm not quite sure why, but the debate is largely being fuelled by hoser on the one hand and the collecting hatred of him on the other. In most cases, it's a moot point as anyone who wants to do it will quietly go off and do so (and possibly lose a few snakes along the way, but there ya go) while the rest will yell and scream about how evil it is, the only effect being that hoser will be glad that once again his controversy has gained him exposure.

[olivehydra]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

Water Pythons over Adders, no question there.

I have no doubt at all that they envenomate dead prey. I think you can often get some idea of how much venom they put in, as I said earlier in the thread, my female Barkly seems particularly keen to pump a lot in. Whether or not this is important in digestion, I don't really know, however, it is quite clear that they are perfectly capable of digesting their food without venom. My guess is that venom would aid digestion, but if it isn't there, they'll just produce slightly more gastric enzymes to compensate. Since venom is 'expensive' to produce, this should give the snake a 'net cost', in fact, since venom is primarily designed to kill/immobilise, not to digest, the gastric enzymes are probably a more efficient way of going about it, so the venomoid snakes are likely at an advantage, purely looking at things from a physiological point of view. Of course, this is more speculation than anything else and purely from a digestive point of view I'd be inclined to leave snakes as they are, simply because of the 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' rule of thumb which will generally guide us safely through life.

You'd expect that they'd be capable of digesting food without venom, just in case for some reason they need to, and the empirical evidence confirms it. I must say, I feel somewhat comforted knowing that my snakes are unaltered.

The venomoid debate seems to be really raging lately, I'm not quite sure why, but the debate is largely being fuelled by hoser on the one hand and the collecting hatred of him on the other. In most cases, it's a moot point as anyone who wants to do it will quietly go off and do so (and possibly lose a few snakes along the way, but there ya go) while the rest will yell and scream about how evil it is, the only effect being that hoser will be glad that once again his controversy has gained him exposure.

Very well put. I am against voids personally but know little of Rays perspective. From the little I know he has made some positive contributions to herpetoculture but perhaps equally negative ones? Such is life. Perhaps some more intimate study of vens could be made without the dangers involved dealing with voids, I dont know? My fear is that with the ever increasing popularity with herps, voids may find a niche in the newbie community, purely at the expense of the animals. Keep them real and exercise caution I say. Having said that, a snake with a docked tail and stitched cloaca would make for a cleaner and more streamlined inner-city pet, albeit short lived :wink:
Out of interest, surely most herp vets would refuse to perform the procedure, or is it a case of backyard surgery?

[peterescue]

As Sdaji rightly points out the main area of debate over voiding is based on a dislike of Hoser. There are many reasons for this and that he will respond. The same debate has never taken place over ARPs use of venomoids in their outside pits.
Similarly I dont see debates raging over the scent glands being surgically removed from ferrets.

[zulu]

Originally Posted by peterescue

As Sdaji rightly points out the main area of debate over voiding is based on a dislike of Hoser. There are many reasons for this and that he will respond. The same debate has never taken place over ARPs use of venomoids in their outside pits.
Similarly I dont see debates raging over the scent glands being surgically removed from ferrets.

Just humans mutilating other animals,we mutilate our own species with clitoris and penis cicumcision and dont forget carpet bombing thats showbizz hey

[Sdaji]

I can't recall hoser ever contributing anything of value (anyone who thinks he has must surely not have been following his antics for very long), although he makes no shortage of claims, including being responsible for NSW allowing private reptile keeping and being the individual person responsible for alerting the rest of the country to the fact that cane toads are an environmental problem. His absurd list of such claims is longer than all our arms put together, he thrives on the responses to such fraud and the best response to anything he does is silence. I generally follow this rule, but I suppose here I've gone against it. I don't think he is delusional, he knows his stories are beyond fanciful, he is just an extreme attention seeker who seeks to acheive that goal in very inappropriate ways. Too many people are silly enough to fall for his childish tactics and thus he has become an all too familiar person.

As for the venomoid issue, I think people would be vehemently anti venomoid even without hoser. ARP doesn't cop flak because they're quiet about it. In the USA they don't have as big a hoser issue, but they still have venomoids and vocal protestors. I think whether or not it's a good thing, the idea of cutting open a snake's head for something which isn't required to keep it alive will get people upset. Hoser merely causes the issue to be brought up repeatedly because he openly flaunts what he does, in a deliberately provocative way, including being quite open about doing the surgery illegally.

[diamond_python]

They look awesome Sdaji. Well done!!

[olivehydra]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

, in a deliberately provocative way, including being quite open about doing the surgery illegally.

Are you serious? I have never bothered to follow the hoser files so admit to knowing very little. I thought he was a taxi driver, not a surgeon? (oh and author). Still his name appears in alot of literature which may impress some?

[Sdaji]

I've read most of what he has published. Most is worth less than the paper it's printed on, little of consequence is original. Read it all and you'll cease to be impressed, read things written about him by others and you'll be horrified. Hoser is no stranger to admitting to breaking laws. He was a taxi driver some years ago, but after publishing books which accused police officers and politicians of wrong doing, they took his license away and for some time he made his living selling self published propaganda books. Someone like hoser is living proof that you can get away with the worst, most people won't notice or care and few few who do will be ignored.

[olivehydra]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

I've read most of what he has published. Most is worth less than the paper it's printed on, little of consequence is original. Read it all and you'll cease to be impressed, read things written about him by others and you'll be horrified. Hoser is no stranger to admitting to breaking laws. He was a taxi driver some years ago, but after publishing books which accused police officers and politicians of wrong doing, they took his license away and for some time he made his living selling self published propaganda books. Someone like hoser is living proof that you can get away with the worst, most people won't notice or care and few few who do will be ignored.

Yes perhaps I will read his stuff and come to my own conclusions. I quized an old friend of mine who happens to be a herpetologist about him, hoping to get some goss, and all I got was laughter I must say I'm a little concerned as I am very gullible so I may come out of the experience wearing aluminium foil over my head in order to prevent ASIO reading my thoughts

[KathandStu]

Sdaji: They are truly beautiful snakes. Whilst I have absolutly no desire to keep vens myself I can certainly admire most ardently your fine specimens! Lovely snakes & lovely photography (as always). Congratulations on the most recent addition to your scaled family.