Hibernation

[lutzd]

Interesting topic. When I bought my first snake off Bigguy, he commented that you can't fool snakes if they can see natural daylight.

I haven't cooled my snakes to date, but was planning to this year. Bob: do you cool yours? Can you give us details?

[Artie]

Originally Posted by spilota_1

Hybernation means total dormacy in an inactive state of torpur. Only Diamonds IMO need a full hybernation with no heat source .

In the wild, during warmer days in winter, Diamonds are frequently seen basking on rock ledges.
So maybe brumation or cooling is more appropriate.

[spilota_1]

This is true in their natural state,and you do say on warmer days (when their metabolism raises with the higher temp) but from records of breedings in captivity complete hybernation has yielded majority of sucess. Most Diamond breeders throw adults into styrofoam boxes or plastic tubs in the coldest part of their homes such as a cement floored garage throughout winter. Only thing the adults are given is a water bowl to aid in keeping humidity up and avoid dehydration. Another thing to consider is activity. Total inactivity would be more suited as they will not use up fat reserves then and lose condition in the 3 month period they are not being fed. If only cooling then the Diamonds are still active and are using reserves and are bound to lose condition. So if you totally slow their metabolism they will not lose the weight they would if being active. Also while in hybernation there immune system along with bacteria shuts down completely and they are less likely to suffer when being warmed again.

[Artie]

Originally Posted by spilota_1

Most Diamond breeders throw adults into styrofoam boxes or plastic tubs in the coldest part of their homes such as a cement floored garage throughout winter.

Not wanting to go into an argument here, but I find that hard to believe, happening with Australian breeders.
I have read that about breeders in the USA.
But having said that, I can only go by some the breeders I spoke to, and in particular the ones I bought my Diamonds from.
Both very experienced and have been breeding for a very long time, only Diamonds, (one about 20 years, one 15 years), both use different methods with great success, in that I mean, one breeds all his snakes indoors, the other outdoors in an Aviary.
Neither feed their snakes for about 3 to 4 month.
Both agree to have some heat in indoors enclosure in the middle of the day for a short period, except one month nothing.
On of the suggestion, the one I go by is,
Last feed in April, after digestion 2-3 weeks, 3 to 4 hours heat in middle of day May June, low 30’s, heat off in July, August 3 to 4 hours low 30’s, September 8 to 9 hours.
Fresh water and normal daylight.
Cheers Artie

[spilota_1]

Regarding Diamonds nothing is absolutely garunteed as evidence as of yet. Nobody can verify exactly what causes DPS so we all go by theories and speculation when keeping these animals. This has lead to Diamonds being kept in cooler temperatures and given UV lighting etc. Many people have lost their Diamonds when reintroducing higher temps after winter cooling. This leads me to believe that while being cooled they were still active enough that their immune system had only slowed while bacteria is still running at a higher rate. Again nothing is proven on this but many keepers agree that this is a possible scenario. I know a few well known Diamond breeders that hybernate their snakes completely for the above mentioned reasons. (I also know a few that dont, but everyone will do things differently) The benefits of full hybernation as indicated are no activity = no fat reserves being used up so no weight loss. Condition of the animals is a high priority with this species so it is best we do what we can to maintain the best condition on our breeders during this time. Immune & bacteria shut down where both abide in unison as compared to a slower immune system trying to compete with stronger bacteria. Now I am not a doctor so this is far from gospel, but talking to other keepers this is evident by the amount of losses when warming up after cooling indicating this to be the reason. As I said everyone will do things differently, personally I would prefer no heat for the reasons I have outlined but to each their own.

[earthmother]

Originally Posted by Simon_Archibald

I only have 3 pythons, all under 2.5 years old, but I don't brumate them at all.

Does anyone else think that as a herp society, we should be putting forward the correct terms so that to the community we present a unified group of enthusiasts? I mean by using the term Brumation?

Simon Archibald

yes keep them coming. Brumation is very different and only occurs in ectothermic animals...also hibernation is a complete shut down but in brumation they do sometimes eat and move around. please correct me if im wrong.

[Ramsayi]

Can anyone show me any evidence of any australian snake,python or otherwise hibernating in the wild?
Bruminate yes but hibernate?

[spilota_1]

Many herpers have discovered aggregations within Australian reptiles due to hibernation. Aggregation = multiple animals concealed together similar to garter snakes in Canada when they all hibernate in a cave. I will look for a link and post it if you like.

[spilota_1]

http://www.reptileforum.fsnet.co.uk/...ed/AggSna1.htm

This shows that Australian snakes do hibernate. Of course many variable things determin this such as temps, season, weather, photoperiod, food items and more than likely even the area they come from.

[Ramsayi]

It seems that the paper lists plenty of instances of snakes found aggregating but at the temps listed hardly constitutes that they were hibernating.

[spilota_1]

I doubt you have read the entire list in 8 minutes from start to finish. Many instances show that hibernation was not the main factor to aggregation, however many instances clearly state that the animals found were in a state of torpur in hibernation mode.

[Ramsayi]

Torpor yes ,Hibernation no

[womas4me]

If you are only using a heat lamp and not heating the cage floor or surrounding room then wouldnt the animal experience brumation anyway as in the wild. If the animal moves and basks in winter but has cold nights then only using a heat lamp would simulate this as it would still get cold at night. Thats how i see it anyway.

[Magpie]

I think he was using the term hibernation synonymously with brumation in that article. Endothermic animals hibernate, ectotherms brumate. The act of hibernation implies that the animals body temp is allowed to drop to that of it's surroundings, something which reptiles always do really.

By the way Spilota 1, I read that whole article before Ramsayi answered, it's not that big.

[spilota_1]

Here is a few instances indicating hibernation occurring.

During mid winter 1975, Mr. Garry Webb, located an aggregation of two adult Yellow-faced Whip Snakes (Demansia psammophis) and one adult Red-naped Snake (Furina diadema) at Glenbrook N.S.W. (lat 33° 46’ S, long 150° 36' E). The aggregation was located on top of a hill in dry, rocky sclerophyll forest. The three snakes were discovered at roughly 10.00am. (local time) and the weather conditions were described as being simply cool, dry and mild. The aggregation was located under a single well embedded sandstone rock measuring approximately 60cm X 90cm X 15cm deep. The soil underneath the rock was dry, sandy and loamy.The rock was not on, or immediately adjacent to any outcrop, simply being sited in an open section of ground in bushland. The three snakes when discovered were coiled up in a group, in a state of apparent torpidity.

During early May 1977, the author located an aggregation of twenty nine Small-eyed Snakes (Cryptophis nigrescens) at Darkes Forest N.S.W. (lat 34° 11' S, long 150° 56’ E). The aggregation was discovered at 10.00am. and the weather at the time was cool, calm and sunny, with an average air temperature of around 14°C.
The local habitat was a mixture of sclerophyll forest and farmland and the aggregation was located adjacent to the remains of a demolished house. The remains of the house consisted of a few large slabs of concrete, blocks of wood, sheets of corrugated iron etc., in a partially cleared patch of land. The aggregation was located in a pile of approximately twenty sheets of corrugated iron. The snakes were not all located together, but in clusters ranging from one to four individuals sometimes with more than one cluster between two sheets of corrugated iron. The sheets were positioned directly on top of one another in a tight fitting manner, with only limited amounts of debris between each sheet of tin. The pile of corrugated iron was sitting on moist rich dark soil, typical of the local area. No snakes were located under the bottom sheet of the iron. The regions between each sheet of iron were generally slightly moist, and contained no other snakes besides the twenty nine Small-eyed Snakes. The snakes ranged from juvenile to large adult, with the majority of the snakes being adult. The snakes appeared to be inactive and in a state of hibernation when found.

During early winter 1979, Mr. David Cary located an aggregation of eight adult Small-eyed Snakes (Cryptophis nigrescens) at Kangaroo Valley N.S.W. (lat 34° 45’ S, long 150° 33’ E). The aggregation was located at midday and the weather at the time was cold and raining lightly, with an average air temperature of around 15°C. The aggregation was located half way up a moist, rocky sclerophyll forest hillside with an easterly aspect. The snakes were located underneath a very large well concealed sandstone rock, covered with roughly 9cms of leaf litter. The rock was well shaded by shrubbery and had the approximate dimensions of 120cm x 120cm X 25cm deep. The rock was on fairly dry, loose, sandy soil. Adjacent to the rock was a cliff face roughly 3m high, with the rock being situated on top of the cliff. The eight adult snakes were in a single cluster, and in a state of torpidity when found.

Clearly states that they were inactive and in a state of torpur.
Season shows this to be winter with low temperatures.
This clearly indicates them to be hibernating to me and those experienced herpers that wrote the paper must have thought the same thing. And I would think that those researching this study and doing actual field work would be better judges on this subject then any of us here dont you think? NSW NPWS also says on their website that Australian snakes hibernate.