Hybrid on Herptrader

[MrBredli]

You're wrong Hix. The hobby is worse off for two reasons. The first is it is encouraging hybrids to be produced - $1000 for a mongrel?! And an ugly one at that! Secondly, if it is fertile it, it will no doubt, at some point in time, be bred back to a pure animal further muddying the lines of future generations. It is only a matter if time before Broadheaded Snakes become extinct in the wild, then all we'll have left are the ones in captivity. The way things are going, and with help from idiots like this, we'll be lucky to even have them (pure ones anyway)!

[Hix]

What children? If it's infertile, there won't be any 'children'.

Originally Posted by MrBredli

You're wrong Hix. The hobby is worse off for two reasons. The first is it is encouraging hybrids to be produced - $1000 for a mongrel?! And an ugly one at that! Secondly, if it is fertile it, it will no doubt, at some point in time, be bred back to a pure animal further muddying the lines of future generations. It is only a matter if time before Broadheaded Snakes become extinct in the wild, then all we'll have left are the ones in captivity. The way things are going, and with help from idiots like this, we'll be lucky to even have them (pure ones anyway)!

Points taken, however, hybrids between species are often very hard to accomplish (as the animals don't often recognise the other species as a mate, and if they do, the genetics doesn't always work).

Secondly, if it is infertile, your second argument is non-existent. And there is a very good chance it will be infertile.

I agree, it's not something to be encouraged in the amatuer herper, but it doesn't warrant the vitriol I've seen in this thread.



Hix

[MrBredli]

If.

[Colin]

I wouldn't be surprised if the hybrid was fertile. There all Hoplocephalus. And as the Broad headed snake is listed as 'vunerable' I would have thought it would be illegal to hybridise it?
http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bi...?taxon_id=1182

http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bi...LES_VULNERABLE

Threatened species
Categories of threatened species
Threatened fauna and flora may be listed in any one of the following categories as defined in Section 179 of the EPBC Act:

Extinct;
Extinct in the wild*;
Critically endangered*;
Endangered*;
Vulnerable*; and
Conservation dependent.

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiv.../recovery.html

I wouldn't think hybridising the Broad headed Snake (hoplocephalus bungaroides) would be in the best interests for any recovery plan, conservation or for the species future myself.

[Hix]

Recovery plans tend to use specimens of known localities, of individuals actually in a recovery plan. This one currently isn't in a recovery plan, so it's not a big deal at this point.



Hix

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Hix

Recovery plans tend to use specimens of known localities, of individuals actually in a recovery plan. This one currently isn't in a recovery plan, so it's not a big deal at this point.



Hix

thats maybe a matter of opinion Do you agree that the Broad Headed snake is vunerable?
Don't you agree that it's not in the best interests of the BHS to have people hybridising them?

If the existing captive population became tainted by hybrids that would (imo) not assist any conservation or recovery efforts were they deemed necessary in the future. What if a hybrid was released or escaped and ended up tainting the wild population? Surely we have some responsibility to the species?

[ozianimals]

Originally Posted by womanator

All Dogs are the same species!

And a snake is still a snake......................................
and these ones from what I have read are from the same family eg red cattle dog and blue cattle dog.

So what is different from crossbreeding a ****zu with a greatdane how would that be a purebred.........It's not. People do this all of the time, with different animals.

I have not studied dog genetics and therefore can not say that they are the same species but I know for a fact that their not the same breed.......there is a difference.........just like a diamond python and a coastal python are both carpets and both come under the species of SNAKE but they are different and in the wild interbreed at the edge of their locales, such as in Gosford you will find that there are a few intergrades.............


Mr bredli

No It's not mine and I don't know who owns it.....I have not even seen the add......
All I am saying is that you get Bitsas in all animals it's not the species but the breed that is crossed and whether it is a dog, bird, cat, horse, rabbit or snake it will happen naturally and via human interaction. Just because you do not agree with it does not make it wrong..Where would we be without the mule a cross between a donkey and a horse definately not the same animals.......... I myself do not agree with it, but will not have a go at someone because they tried and was successful How do you think we ended up with so many different breeds of snake in the first place.....It's called evolution or genetic changes which could explain the different venoms within the snake population. But how would two types of snakes have similar venoms and the next snake totally different??????The blue and red cattle dog are mixtures of breeds and they were bred for a purpose, but they are a bitsa just like this snake. Australias only purebred dog is a Dingo yet they have been crossed into extinction as even in the wild there are very few wild pure dingos.......

Just to let you know I have paid and bought a cross coastal diamond that was a hatchie from wild caught crosses from before you needed a lic in NSW and they occur naturally. She is a great animal and I would not swap her for anything except cash if I was ready to sell her.

[Australis]

And "Snake" is not a species.


You can not just compare it to domestic dogs, its nothing alike.
Domestic dogs are all one species, with many different breeds.

And "Snake" is not a species, or even a genus. or.. or..

The two animals involved, both of the Genus Hoplocephalus, but different species.

H. bungaroides + H. stephensii = The hybrid advertised.

[Jonno from ERD]

ozianimals,

I think you are struggling to understand the difference between scientifically defined species, and breeds or morphs of a single species. Dogs (Canis familiarlis), horses (Equus caballus), humans (Homo sapien) etc are all the one species. You get many different colourations, breeds and morphs within these species. For instance, you get Rotweillers, Pugs, Poodles and Great Dane's in dogs - but they are still the same species.

Interspecific hybridisation would be like crossing a goat with a cow, or a chicken with an eagle. In most cases, interspecific hybridisation is impossible, but in some cases it will work. Examples in Australian reptiles include Liasis fuscus x Morelia spilota, Morelia spilota x Morelia amythestina, Pseudechis guttatus x Pseudechis colletti, Hoplocephalus stephensi x Hoplocephalus bitorquatus, Pogona vitticeps x Pogona barbata, Tiliqua scincoides x Tililqua nigroleuta, all three common Antaresia and possibly a wild occurance of Aspidites melanocephalus x Aspidites ramsayi. I hope that clears up the difference.

With regards to conservation value of any animal held in private hands, they are virtually worthless with the exception of very few species like the Mary River Turtle.

[cris]

Originally Posted by Jonno from ERD

With regards to conservation value of any animal held in private hands, they are virtually worthless with the exception of very few species like the Mary River Turtle.

But any natural form local specific animals have conservation value regardless of if they can be released. A species kept in survival even if only living in a box, is still conserved.

[Greebo]

Deja vu all over again

[cockney red]

Groundhog Tuesday. Pass the razorblade someone.

[ozianimals]

Originally Posted by Jonno from ERD

ozianimals,

I think you are struggling to understand the difference between scientifically defined species, and breeds or morphs of a single species. Dogs (Canis familiarlis), horses (Equus caballus), humans (Homo sapien) etc are all the one species. You get many different colourations, breeds and morphs within these species. For instance, you get Rotweillers, Pugs, Poodles and Great Dane's in dogs - but they are still the same species.

Interspecific hybridisation would be like crossing a goat with a cow, or a chicken with an eagle. In most cases, interspecific hybridisation is impossible, but in some cases it will work. Examples in Australian reptiles include Liasis fuscus x Morelia spilota, Morelia spilota x Morelia amythestina, Pseudechis guttatus x Pseudechis colletti, Hoplocephalus stephensi x Hoplocephalus bitorquatus, Pogona vitticeps x Pogona barbata, Tiliqua scincoides x Tililqua nigroleuta, all three common Antaresia and possibly a wild occurance of Aspidites melanocephalus x Aspidites ramsayi. I hope that clears up the difference.

With regards to conservation value of any animal held in private hands, they are virtually worthless with the exception of very few species like the Mary River Turtle.

This would explain the difference if you were using correct terminology as the snakes you are mentioning are subspecies of the species snake......Now correct me if I'm wrong but after a little reading on the net, a species is a group of genetic markers which would give us a base structure then we get sub species which is the difference between the different types of snakes then we have genis and so on. So with this reasoning snakes would be the species, elapids etc.would be the sub species and morelia would be the genis.
This is how I read all of the material on biology of species .

[MrBredli]

Congratulations, you have out done yourself and smashed your previous record. The above post is now the official 'Dumbest Post Ever On APS'.

[junglepython2]

There are heaps of different species of snake. Subpecies is say jungle and diamond. But a carpet and water python are totally different species.

Dogs and snakes shouldn't be compared, but crossing a great dane with a ****zu is like crossing a banded jungle with a striped jungle. It is nothing at all like crossing two different species.