Hybrids, against or for it? Read this!

[ExecutiveReptiles]

Originally Posted by Moreliaman

I think theres room in the hobby for both, theres a market for it (supply & demand), its been going on for years already anyway, i remember seeing corn x kingsnakes about 15-20 years ago.
Interesting to read others thoughts on it though.

True...KingxCorns have been around for quite some time...but the main problem is for example, what if nobody could get Cornsnakes or Kingsnakes anymore....what if the United States put a Ban on ALL export of Flora and Fauna...and you being in the UK....All you guys had would be what you have now...now speed it up 20-30 years...and during that time....All the Mixing and cross breeding....ment the people who chose to work with Pure Cornsnakes...had a harder and harder time finding them...due to the possibility that somewhere down the line of time...since the Ban...there might just be Kingsnake mixed into it...Those who truely want to work with Pure Cornsnakes are limited as to what and who they can get it from...And then people go off saying...there are no pure cornsnakes...so who cares....but at one time...someone here in America went out and caught wild cornsnakes...and bred them and ship them to the UK....at one point they where Real Pure Cornsnakes...

Of course this is a wild example...but the same thing really....The Morelia Pythons we have here in the states.... where at one point as Pure as one could get.....those who wanted to work with Coastals...could...those who wanted to work with Diamonds....Could....but as time has gone on....without the ability to refresh bloodlines with wildcaught "Pure" specimens....those options for keepers interested in working with "pure" species are dwindling.....I personally won't work with Diamond Pythons, as I personally know quite a few breeders who produced Diamonds, only to either have people question thier true pureness, or seem more interested in getting the 88% DiamondxJungle Cross that looks like a Diamond but sells for Half the price....

We here in the states have a limited gene pool of Australian Carpet Pythons....and whats sad is the lack of self control, or the overwelming urge to create something new.... no matter what the cost....Its all about them, and thier snakes...and many feel once thier offspring leave thier posession its not thier problem....thats the mentality here in the States...from my opinion....

But your right....there has to be room for both....as with any hobby, there are usually bars...limits....and once a keeper or breeder reaches those limits are bars....where do they go....Many get bored with refining or selectively breeding a certain species...they have to raise the bar, or set new limits on what they can do....It seems its part of the hobby...almost natural to "experiment"......

I just remember the first time I laid eyes on a Jungle Carpet back in the early 90's....I was in AW of it....I was thrilled to death to just own a Jungle...a REAL Jungle Carpet Python....man times have changed...or I have changed..lol.....I look back at pictures of that first Jungle, and can't imagine owning it now...lol, it was so ugly...lol

[bump73]

Originally Posted by lazybuddha

now whose talking rubbish

Kelpies and Border Collies are considered breeds yet they are a mix of other dogs, so whats rubbish about that???

Check this link for proof... No point commenting if you can't back it up

http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/6392/beginnings.htm

Ben

[Bapi]

I know it's been said before but crossing dog or cow breeds is not the same as crossing species, subspecies or even localities of reptiles. It's comparing apples with oranges. Because all cow breeds and dog breeds are human made. They are artificial. If you want to keep locality pure cattle well your out of luck because they went extinct several hundred years ago. Locality pure dogs are wolves.

Crossing breeds of dogs or cows is a little like crossing a striped darwin carpet with an albino darwin carpet. The net effect is that you get a return to an animal closer to the wild type. (In this example in the first generation - and unless furthur inbreeding takes place (ie back crossing) in susequent ) Cross bred dogs and cows are healthier and live longer than purebreds (on average) because the diversity of genes helps protect against inherited diseases. As an example my own dog is a labrador cross Dobermann Both breeds carry a wide range of genetic disorders - labs have elbow & hip displasia etc Dobermanns have von willebrands, wobblers etc but very few in common and as most are recessive genes the cross cancels them out. If I bred him to a third unrelated breed the same would hold true. If I bred him to his sister then those recessive genes would reappear. (he is desexed so don't worry)

Breeding locality specific does not neccessarily mean inbreeding. Inbreeding is undesirable from a health point of view and if the plan is to save a true representative of the wild population. Most zoos now try to breed locality specific but they work out who is least related to who within that popultion in order to decide who to breed from. What often happens with locality specific is that people get a pair of locality specific individuals and continue to breed from them and their offspring. They also select for the prettiest individuals and so often end up with a morph that looks very little like and is very little like the true wild specimens from that locality.
People who are serious about preserving locality pure will be outbreeding within that locality to ensure they maintain as true a record of the wild original as possible. (like the zoos do)

[bump73]

Totally agree Bapi...

If directed at me i'm not comparing dogs to reptiles it was in response to someone saying that "pure" dogs are superior to mogrel dogs. Was just pointing out the fact that all breeds are really mongrels at some stage anyway...

Ben

[Bapi]

Hi Ben wasn't directed at you. Purebred dogs are quite a recent creation and were all mongrels at some stage. They have simply been inbred & selected to all look the same as a breed standard.

Stephen (bapi)