Hybrids, against or for it? Read this!

[cockney red]

I know, its such a handicap. I would love some grass from the other side of the fence. It looks so much Greener.

Originally Posted by caustichumor

I can see why some people want hybrids, we live in Australia! Our reptile hobby is restricted to Australian animals.

[urodacus_au]

Your extremely arrogant for someone who makes absolutely no sense Kali Humans are the same species, why are so many people having problems with the 'breeding the same species isnt hybridisation' issue?

According to the Biological Species Concept if two animals can breed and produce viable offspring they are the same species. In the case of these animals they havent speciated to an extent where theire uncompatible. The way i see it subspecies may be able to produce viable offspring, but thats doesnt mean that they should be crossed. I look at the subspecies label as a way of showing that an animal is very similar to other within the species but makes it known that the particular 'varient' is speciating and taking its own evolutionary path. Everyone has their opinions of whats right and wrong, personally i like my animals pure to locality. My knowledge of taxonomy is seriously floored, but this is the way i understand it.

Each to their own, i just see hybrids ruining the hobby and muddying the already murky water for those that choose to remain true to type.
Jordan

[Pythoninfinite]

The initial text is a poorly thought out croc of .... And I've never seen so many stupid posts in only 5 pages. Why do people find this concept of species/subspecies soooo hard to fathom? We won't stop hybridising, simply because there are so many stupid and/or greedy people out there, who have absolutely no understanding of the implications of their actions.

Jamie.

[ozianimals]

Originally Posted by Pythoninfinite

The initial text is a poorly thought out croc of .... And I've never seen so many stupid posts in only 5 pages. Why do people find this concept of species/subspecies soooo hard to fathom? We won't stop hybridising, simply because there are so many stupid and/or greedy people out there, who have absolutely no understanding of the implications of their actions.

Jamie.

The reason is because reptiles seems to be the main animal that has subspecies rather than leaving it at a species where most animals leave it at a species and then seperate into breed such as dogs cats and horses. this makes things easier to understand and hence the confusion here. Thanks to Jonno from ERD I have less trouble with understanding this now, but as a newby this can be hard to understand especially if you have no science knoweledge......

[Sdaji]

Originally Posted by caustichumor

I don't know Sdaji I think you might have tied.

Originally Posted by Mangles

Sdaji,

Unfortunately your post makes more sense the most.

I think you might actually have valid points.

Kali: interbreeding and inbreeding are very different things. Adding genetic material from external populations can sometimes be good (hybrid vigour), but it can also be bad (outbreeding depression). You're right, genetics isn't rocket science, it's nowhere near that simple, and without a solid understanding of such a complex area, it's usually very difficult to draw any reliable conclusions.

Oops! I almost became sucked into a genetics discussion on APS! Sorry guys, I'll run away and discuss advanced rocket science with two year olds now, or perhaps I'll go to an astronomy meeting and tell all of the knowledgable astronomers about how the sun is CLEARLY the brightest object in the universe, it CLEARLY revolves around the Earth, and that the moon is OBVIOUSLY larger than the stars. These facts are blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to open their eyes, duh! Those astronomers are so stupid, trying to convince us otherwise! Why should anyone listen to them when we can so easily see the facts for ourselves?

[Pocket Lizard]

All the discussion seems to be on pythons. What about lizards? How long is it going to be before people get bored with the Nephrurus levis subspecies and start cross-breeding them to try and produce different looking things?

While I agree that on this topic it is probably "to each their own", I would like to think that my grandkids, like me, should be able to buy a genuine N. levis pilbarensis should they decide they love that subspecies.

[CodeRed]

Originally Posted by Pocket Lizard

All the discussion seems to be on pythons. What about lizards? How long is it going to be before people get bored with the Nephrurus levis subspecies and start cross-breeding them to try and produce different looking things?

While I agree that on this topic it is probably "to each their own", I would like to think that my grandkids, like me, should be able to buy a genuine N. levis pilbarensis should they decide they love that subspecies.

They have already done that with P. vitticeps and P. lawsoni. Mungrel things go by the trade name of vittikins. At least they are easy to spot based on adult size.

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

I think you might actually have valid points.

Kali: interbreeding and inbreeding are very different things. Adding genetic material from external populations can sometimes be good (hybrid vigour), but it can also be bad (outbreeding depression). You're right, genetics isn't rocket science, it's nowhere near that simple, and without a solid understanding of such a complex area, it's usually very difficult to draw any reliable conclusions.

Oops! I almost became sucked into a genetics discussion on APS! Sorry guys, I'll run away and discuss advanced rocket science with two year olds now, or perhaps I'll go to an astronomy meeting and tell all of the knowledgable astronomers about how the sun is CLEARLY the brightest object in the universe, it CLEARLY revolves around the Earth, and that the moon is OBVIOUSLY larger than the stars. These facts are blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to open their eyes, duh! Those astronomers are so stupid, trying to convince us otherwise! Why should anyone listen to them when we can so easily see the facts for ourselves?

HAHA, concrete proof that specious reasoning is much more fun then scientific reasoning

[Miss B]

Yep and the Germans also cross-bred P. vitticeps and P. barbata to create what they call 'German Giants'. These were then imported into American to inject some size into their beardies. As a result, many American pet beardies are P. vitticeps with some amount of barbata in their blood.

[Sdaji]

Originally Posted by Pocket Lizard

How long is it going to be before people get bored with the Nephrurus levis subspecies and start cross-breeding them to try and produce different looking things?

If you'd asked me this about five years ago and at the time I had the ability to see into the future, I'd have said "About two years". It may have been done earlier than I'm aware of. The hybrids look intermediate, they're nothing special at all, they're less interesting than a pure of either of the parental subspecies. They're usually produced because people only have a mate of a different subspecies to use, or they are unsure of what they have. It's unusual for people to deliberately cross them, and you'd be fairly silly to. There are already mongrels going around as pure, which is why I bought some wild caught ones while I still had the legal opportunity.

[horsenz]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

I think you might actually have valid points.

Kali: interbreeding and inbreeding are very different things. Adding genetic material from external populations can sometimes be good (hybrid vigour), but it can also be bad (outbreeding depression). You're right, genetics isn't rocket science, it's nowhere near that simple, and without a solid understanding of such a complex area, it's usually very difficult to draw any reliable conclusions.

Oops! I almost became sucked into a genetics discussion on APS! Sorry guys, I'll run away and discuss advanced rocket science with two year olds now, or perhaps I'll go to an astronomy meeting and tell all of the knowledgable astronomers about how the sun is CLEARLY the brightest object in the universe, it CLEARLY revolves around the Earth, and that the moon is OBVIOUSLY larger than the stars. These facts are blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to open their eyes, duh! Those astronomers are so stupid, trying to convince us otherwise! Why should anyone listen to them when we can so easily see the facts for ourselves?

sdaji is that you getting out your whit coat to hide behind again have the aliens released you

[blackghost]

Originally Posted by Chimera

Send some my way Steve

Hopefully no-one brings up Diamonds

SPEAKING OF DIAMONDS....nah, just kidding (as he dangles his lure and holds a bag of
popcorn, he waits patiently for a bite)

[cement]

I reckon that there is a little percentage of herpers, or should I now say herpetoculturists/ artists( what a joke) who are getting into pythons to make big dollars. But is there really a lot of money to be made from breeding wild type/ locality specific pythons these days? There is a lot more people breeding now then there was 10 years ago. And a lot of stock is a lot of work. So we enter the age of the morph. Morphs attract higher prices and people like a different looking snake, this could be the catalyst that drives the little money hungry percentage to hybridising/ bastardising.

[Sdaji]

The aliens let me out on day trips sometimes. I like day trips, I get to eat people food.

[stusnake]

Originally Posted by DragonKeeper

Dogs, Dingos, they are crossed all of the time, it takes a lot of the aggression out so they can be used as pets.

And why are Australian animals more special then from other countries?

Cross bred dogs are much better than pures, If you do it right you can take out the bad and just mix the good from both with no hassles.

Ive worked with pure bred dingos for years and am yet to see this 'agression' you speak of.
I dont have a problem with cross bred dogs, some of my best dogs over the years have been crossed, like wise one of my best was a dingo.
Ive seen quite a fewcross breeds ot there that are absolutley feral compared to many pure breeds. What makes Australian animals more special? there ours, we should be proud of them.