Hybrids, against or for it? Read this!

[horsenz]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

The aliens let me out on day trips sometimes. I like day trips, I get to eat people food.

people food like a bbq and beer

[ad]

Originally Posted by stusnake

What makes Australian animals more special? there ours, we should be proud of them.

Buy this man a beer.

[Slateman]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

I think you might actually have valid points.

Kali: interbreeding and inbreeding are very different things. Adding genetic material from external populations can sometimes be good (hybrid vigour), but it can also be bad (outbreeding depression). You're right, genetics isn't rocket science, it's nowhere near that simple, and without a solid understanding of such a complex area, it's usually very difficult to draw any reliable conclusions.

Oops! I almost became sucked into a genetics discussion on APS! Sorry guys, I'll run away and discuss advanced rocket science with two year olds now, or perhaps I'll go to an astronomy meeting and tell all of the knowledgable astronomers about how the sun is CLEARLY the brightest object in the universe, it CLEARLY revolves around the Earth, and that the moon is OBVIOUSLY larger than the stars. These facts are blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to open their eyes, duh! Those astronomers are so stupid, trying to convince us otherwise! Why should anyone listen to them when we can so easily see the facts for ourselves?

some people have problem to walk through the door occasionally. One part of the body just can't get through.
Sadji, we all know that you are smart young man, but many much smarter people do have modesty as part of it.
There is no need to put down kids and people who don't reach top of IQ test. Sorry, I could not resist to comment.

[Jozz]

Originally Posted by horsenz

people food like a bbq and beer

And olives

[moreliainsanity]

Well this might be a stupid question but i will ask anyway
Are Jags carpet we see from overseas site hybrids? they don't look nothing like our australian
carpets that i've seen and they call them coastals??????


Leigh

[cement]

[quote=Slateman;1060030]some people have problem to walk through the door occasionally. One part of the body just can't get through.

Heeheehee!

[jay76]

Originally Posted by moreliainsanity

Well this might be a stupid question but i will ask anyway
Are Jags carpet we see from overseas site hybrids? they don't look nothing like our australian
carpets that i've seen and they call them coastals??????


Leigh

I am not for or against what people do with there own snakes. But yes Jags are a cross(hybrid) and most people on this site would give there left one to own a pair

[Simple]

Originally Posted by jay76

I am not for or against what people do with there own snakes. But yes Jags are a cross(hybrid) and most people on this site would give there left one to own a pair

The original Jag line was from a coastal to coastal mating.

[jay76]

Originally Posted by Simple

The original Jag line was from a coastal to coastal mating.

who cares about original, Jags are all now crossed

[aspidito]

As Slateman stated dont knock the newbies, we all were there once & this is how people learn, this is a never ending discussion & it is a healthy one.
Its so ironic that we are envied by the Americans & Europeans because the majority of our animals are pure blood true locality specific, they have no idea where their Australian herps originated from as over the years they have been so mixed up, they would kill for a pair of pure Uluru womas etc & yet we envy them for the huge array of albinos, coloured morphs & hybrids that are available. No matter what peoples views are we will follow the overseas trend & hybrids will be in demand & like everything else if you dont keep up you will be left behind, I can see a time when (this is purely hypothetical) that 'Snake ranch' will have specials on Striped Darwin X Bredli albinos, too far away you think, well elsewhere its already been done!. I just hope that we dont make the same mistake & that 20 years down the track when we have all the hybrids under the sun we still have all of our pure locality specific animals to replace the ones that have been lost in collections & wiped out in the wild.
Food for thought, scary for some & cant wait for others.

[Midol]

Originally Posted by DragonKeeper

I will never understand.

There is nothing wrong with Hybrid dogs, cats, cattle, horses and people!

What make herps so special?

Wrong.

All of Australias top traininers, breeders and vets advocate purebred dogs. Hybrid dogs are not alright, only those who lack basic knowledge and feel the need to justify their ill bred mutts justify it. There is nothing that backs up that crosses are a "good" idea.

ETA: Expanding on this with cattle, cross bred cattle are not bred to be healthy. This is hybrid vigour in the flesh. They are crossed to create meat cows FAST. To reach adult size FAST and in doing this they sacrifice the HEALTH of the animal. So many people overlook this when comparing other animals to cattle. So really, comparing reptiles or dogs to cattle should only be done if you intend to eat your animals.

We should always be promoting our animals in the best manner possible. Creating a hybrid is creating a designer snake, a snake designed by humans for humans. Created only for money. That's a big issue for me, animals such as dogs, snakes and other animals that are not bred in agriculture should be bred for sound animals conforming to the standards of the animal and genetically sound.

[ExecutiveReptiles]

I havn't had time to read ALL the replies, but I actually know the author of the original post, it was copied and pasted as a new post from another forum, and the forum title was Purity Debate.

The original author is well known for his stance on being able to do whatever you want with whatever you want....and to make it clear he is in the United States and was refering to U.S. captive breeding of Australian pythons.

My personal opinion...

The issue many so called "Purists" have is that we have a VERY limited gene pool of what we all consider "Pure".....and it seems the term "Pure" upsets many people....and I really think they are taking the term "Pure" out of context in a way...

What the term Pure means to me is something that does not have purposley mixed blood in it....we all basically in our minds at least here in the States have this mental picture of what each subspecies of Morelia looks like...we might have our own little tweek of what we like, but there are general characteristics that we all can agree on that make up each subspecies...ie...what are the characteristics that make a Classic Coastal different than say a Diamond or a Bredl's....

Sure NONE of us have proof of anything...but with our limited gene pool all we can do is continue to try and recreate these "Natural" differences...But recently say in the past 10 years...there has been this massive trend to try and create something new...people seem tired of selective breeding for color or trying to make the best example of that subspecies...and now its all about what can we create...

Now I have no problem with extreme hybrid/intergrades....ones that look really strange/unique/different....can't be confused with any certain subspecies...What I have a problem with is the high % hybrids/intergrades...ones that have been bred to almost resemble a certain subspecies...

I think that is the biggest hardship for so called "purits"...there are many examples...Bredl's and Diamonds come to mind...There are people who work with high percentage diamonds...ones that are JunglexDiamond crosses, or CoastalxDiamond crosses...now at the 50% range...most of the time its more obvious...but when they start breeding those 50% to say another diamond...and producing 75%ers....and then again to make 88%.....they start looking more and more like true Diamonds....

Now Diamonds seem to be one of the more harder to get species here in the states...now we have to battle if they truely are real diamonds....I have had MANY friends who purcahsed diamonds as Diamonds...be knocked as not being pure....So people might knock purests...but there is a reason...many are so vocal...

What purists do...in breeding for certain natural looks....ie "Pure"....is they try and keep things pure...no other way of putting it....it does nothing to hurt anyone...but ensure that future generations of herpetoculturists can have the oppertunity to work with Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds, and Bredl's.....where when people breed whatever to whatever...those offspring go into the US gene pool of muddiness...where post after post say "I just got this Carpet...what is it?"....then we have to guess what it most looks like....time and time again...to the point where many times morelia subspecies are just labeled "Carpet Python" and not given any subspecies identification...cause nobody knows...its just a mutt...aka "Carpet Python"....

I have kept both hybrid/intergrades and so called "Pure" or Natural look....and I have many friends who work with both...and its a debate the has no end...it will keep going forver .....or at least untill Australia drops the export ban...lol

Its funny as the most vocal of both sides, never stop to see each others side...the future as I see it is the Hybrid/Intergrade keepers and breeders will continue to do what they do, and the so called "Purists" will just have to deal with the unkown...and continue to try and recreate those characteristics that make that natural look or as they call it "Pure Look"...

Breeding for the "Purest" you can get doesn't hurt anyone down the road...but the known mass production of crosses/hybrids/intergrades....does affect the ability of "Purists" down the road.....We can't get fresh bloodlines here in the states, If someone wants say....a Diamond they have to take the word of the breeder that his stock is "pure" diamond...and not just high%JunglexDiamond crosses....

But To each his own....Sorry for the long post..

[cockney red]

NUFF SAID.

Originally Posted by aspidito

As Slateman stated dont knock the newbies, we all were there once & this is how people learn, this is a never ending discussion & it is a healthy one.
Its so ironic that we are envied by the Americans & Europeans because the majority of our animals are pure blood true locality specific, they have no idea where their Australian herps originated from as over the years they have been so mixed up, they would kill for a pair of pure Uluru womas etc & yet we envy them for the huge array of albinos, coloured morphs & hybrids that are available. No matter what peoples views are we will follow the overseas trend & hybrids will be in demand & like everything else if you dont keep up you will be left behind, I can see a time when (this is purely hypothetical) that 'Snake ranch' will have specials on Striped Darwin X Bredli albinos, too far away you think, well elsewhere its already been done!. I just hope that we dont make the same mistake & that 20 years down the track when we have all the hybrids under the sun we still have all of our pure locality specific animals to replace the ones that have been lost in collections & wiped out in the wild.
Food for thought, scary for some & cant wait for others.

[cockney red]

Is this what we aspire to. Although some would say we're already there, we could certainly be there very quickly if we're not careful.

Originally Posted by ExecutiveReptiles

I havn't had time to read ALL the replies, but I actually know the author of the original post, it was copied and pasted as a new post from another forum, and the forum title was Purity Debate.

The original author is well known for his stance on being able to do whatever you want with whatever you want....and to make it clear he is in the United States and was refering to U.S. captive breeding of Australian pythons.

My personal opinion...

The issue many so called "Purists" have is that we have a VERY limited gene pool of what we all consider "Pure".....and it seems the term "Pure" upsets many people....and I really think they are taking the term "Pure" out of context in a way...

What the term Pure means to me is something that does not have purposley mixed blood in it....we all basically in our minds at least here in the States have this mental picture of what each subspecies of Morelia looks like...we might have our own little tweek of what we like, but there are general characteristics that we all can agree on that make up each subspecies...ie...what are the characteristics that make a Classic Coastal different than say a Diamond or a Bredl's....

Sure NONE of us have proof of anything...but with our limited gene pool all we can do is continue to try and recreate these "Natural" differences...But recently say in the past 10 years...there has been this massive trend to try and create something new...people seem tired of selective breeding for color or trying to make the best example of that subspecies...and now its all about what can we create...

Now I have no problem with extreme hybrid/intergrades....ones that look really strange/unique/different....can't be confused with any certain subspecies...What I have a problem with is the high % hybrids/intergrades...ones that have been bred to almost resemble a certain subspecies...

I think that is the biggest hardship for so called "purits"...there are many examples...Bredl's and Diamonds come to mind...There are people who work with high percentage diamonds...ones that are JunglexDiamond crosses, or CoastalxDiamond crosses...now at the 50% range...most of the time its more obvious...but when they start breeding those 50% to say another diamond...and producing 75%ers....and then again to make 88%.....they start looking more and more like true Diamonds....

Now Diamonds seem to be one of the more harder to get species here in the states...now we have to battle if they truely are real diamonds....I have had MANY friends who purcahsed diamonds as Diamonds...be knocked as not being pure....So people might knock purests...but there is a reason...many are so vocal...

What purists do...in breeding for certain natural looks....ie "Pure"....is they try and keep things pure...no other way of putting it....it does nothing to hurt anyone...but ensure that future generations of herpetoculturists can have the oppertunity to work with Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds, and Bredl's.....where when people breed whatever to whatever...those offspring go into the US gene pool of muddiness...where post after post say "I just got this Carpet...what is it?"....then we have to guess what it most looks like....time and time again...to the point where many times morelia subspecies are just labeled "Carpet Python" and not given any subspecies identification...cause nobody knows...its just a mutt...aka "Carpet Python"....

I have kept both hybrid/intergrades and so called "Pure" or Natural look....and I have many friends who work with both...and its a debate the has no end...it will keep going forver .....or at least untill Australia drops the export ban...lol

Its funny as the most vocal of both sides, never stop to see each others side...the future as I see it is the Hybrid/Intergrade keepers and breeders will continue to do what they do, and the so called "Purists" will just have to deal with the unkown...and continue to try and recreate those characteristics that make that natural look or as they call it "Pure Look"...

Breeding for the "Purest" you can get doesn't hurt anyone down the road...but the known mass production of crosses/hybrids/intergrades....does affect the ability of "Purists" down the road.....We can't get fresh bloodlines here in the states, If someone wants say....a Diamond they have to take the word of the breeder that his stock is "pure" diamond...and not just high%JunglexDiamond crosses....

But To each his own....Sorry for the long post..

[moreliainsanity]

Originally Posted by jay76

I am not for or against what people do with there own snakes. But yes Jags are a cross(hybrid) and most people on this site would give there left one to own a pair

Thanks for the info jay76, So are they available in australia? if so what price tag would they sell for? being hybrids then they would not attract purist herpers, am i correct on this one?


Leigh