Hybrids, against or for it? Read this!

[Jonno from ERD]

Originally Posted by ravensgait

I see it is that time of year again !! One thing I'd like to point out is that Hybrids tend to be infertile IE Mules ETC where Intergrades as an example DiamondXJungle are fertile. And who ever made the cattle and dog crossbreeding is bad!comment needs to do some real research. There are breeds of Cattle and Breeds of dogs their get are only as good or bad as the parents they come from. This is like discussing inbreeding or religion IE emotions and ideals ETC get in the way.

Here is something that was posted on another forum and I think it isn't an unreasonable view

Quote/

Your confusing monitors with people. First, there is nothing wrong with crossing(hybrids)in monitors. The problem is with some people who intentionally or unintentionally mislabel them.

In the case of your flavis. After I stopped breeding them, they flat disappeared. Leaving nothing but crosses. I am again producing pure flavis.

So your beef is really with those people. You must ask yourself, what do the monitors have to do with it.

You did not mentioned it, but I am responsible for many crosses(that you mentioned) But, some occur by folks, who do not even realize they are breeding two different species. This is very common. Or people who flat do not care. This world is full of all manner of folks.

This has even occurred in zoos with mangrove types, doreanus types and gouldi types. They did not do it on purpose. They just did not know, what they had was different.

As you know, new species are discribed all the time. The reality is, no new species are being created. We are just giving the animals that exsist, different names. Which boils down to this, what was not hybrids or crosses ten, fifteen years ago, is today. And will be even more tomorrow.

So the actual point is not to like it or dislike it, it does and WILL occur, the concern is how me manage it. If its in the forefront, it can be managed. But if its hidden, then who knows what your getting.

When so-called experts(suedo purists) make this subject about good and bad(choosing to like or dislike it), it really is making it a very harmful situation. Then people polarize. Those that think its bad, may hide it. Its going to happen and we really do not want it hidden.

Crossing is not bad, but hiding it is. ARe you getting this.

Lastly, no one has to like it, just as no one has to like all monitors, or all individuals, or all species. But you do not have to make what you do not like, A BAD THING. Please consider this. Cheers /Quote

I have to agree it is better to keep it out in the open as there is no way anyone can stop it. Me I say to each his own..

Randy

Every Randy rabbits on about in his post is easily avoidable by breeding animals pure to their location...problem solved.

[Jonno from ERD]

Another thing...

Everyone is saying that hybrids breed "stronger, healthier" animals. Can anyone pinpoint a single disease, ailment or problem associated with breeding true to species/locality animals?

Let me save some time here...the answer is no.

[Miss B]

Originally Posted by Kirby

i personally suggested the 'lending' or this persons barbata genes (breeding loan) as a means of funding their research, assuming these german barbata's are adeno free. as breeders will pay top dollar.

So you actively encouraged someone to cross vitticeps and barbata?

Originally Posted by Kirby

please do not PM me, or kick up dust about this un- named person, i will not name them.

Erm, why would I PM you? I couldn't care less if someone in the US has managed to get hold of a few barbata, lol.

[CGSwans]

What is 'adeno'? I presume it's some sort of genetic defect that affects American and European beardies?

[Miss B]

Adenovirus. It's a virus that has affected beardies in the United States. It causes lots of problems including a weakened immune system and dragons can become infected simply by coming into contact with an Adeno-positive beardie. Beardies can also pass the virus to their offspring. There is a test that can be done prior to breeding in order to determine if a dragon is Adeno-positive or not, but a lot of breeders do not bother and therefore the virus is being passed from one generation to the next.

[CGSwans]

Thanks. It hasn't reared its head here at all? Has it crossed species at all?

[Miss B]

The Adenovirus has been reported in P. vitticeps, P. barbata, P. henrylawsonii and I believe there was also a monitor of some sort that was found to be affected.

To date there have been no cases here in Australia (thank god). The first reported case was actually in Auckland, New Zealand, and it made it's way to the States from there. Here's some more info (article courtesy of www.thepats.info).

I wanted to inform people that they need to be aware of the Adeno virus that has been present in the bearded dragon population for quite some time. It has shown itself to be quite extensive now here in the United States. There are several strains & can go hand in hand with corona virus & the dependo virus. They are hard to tell apart due to their small structures of cells. However, the virus' are usually species specific.

Some symptoms of Adenovirus greatly vary. It is an overall suppression of the immune system which will leave them vulnerable & more prone to illness & disease. Routes of transmission have not been scientifically proven yet but are said to be fecal/oral & through the cloacal area & the egg sac. There have been no documented cases of transmission due to respiratory droplets, thus far.

Some generalized symptoms include the overall failure to thrive no matter what the husbandry consists of, inability to get the coccidia to an acceptalbe level for prolonged periods of time despite treatments. Other reported symptoms have been neurological type problems such as eye to tongue coordination difficulties which makes it hard to catch prey. Also, another seemingly common problem is called stargazing which is staring upwards towards the sky. Stargazing is basically defined as a mental dullness, abnormal posture, & the inability to move in a normal way. Other main causes of stargazing are also heat damage, trauma, & bacterial agents which are the most common sources.

One other problem we are seeing is poor or malabsorption problems with calcium which can lead to metabolic bone problems.

To sum up, Adenovirus has been around since at least 1996 here in the US. The first documented case was in a female Pogona Barbata in 1990 at th Aukland Zoological Park, New Zealand. Bearded dragons were brought over the the US in the 1980's for the pet trade & have quickly gained popularity in the reptile industry. There were 2 earlier documented cases in the early 1990's here in the US, one in 1994 in a Rankins, or Pogona Henrylawsoni, in Illinois & another one in 1996 in a Pogona Vitticeps, here in the USA.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by Miss B

So you actively encouraged someone to cross vitticeps and barbata?



Erm, why would I PM you? I couldn't care less if someone in the US has managed to get hold of a few barbata, lol.

1. yes, for the purpose of strengthening a weakened stock, somewhat pure barbata would and could encourage adeno free, healthier stronger lines in alot of breeders stock.


although here in australia, its unnecessary to do so.

considering the outer Australian breeders have very little chance of getting more fresh blood or genes out of the country, the state of their lines dont look good. boxboy was illegally brought from Aus. unknown by himslef, or bred by his parents. either way the legalities werent to good with his arival. the most breeders can do is try to outcross their lines, they try to out cross to german giant, as these are the 'strongest' and in some cases it works. others, even the german has been weakened by lack of the new.

hybridisation between the p. vit, and p.barbata. doesnt seem to cause any harm, but rather good. this si why its so saught after. if it had similar effects to inbreeding, by opinion on the matter would differ. but considering the 'german giant' in the past. theres nothing to worry about. its better than furthur weakening by producing 'lack of' lines.

the possibility of new barbata blood (then again any new pogona blood) is a positive for the 'stocks' outcome. just imagin the royal family, only allowed to marry (thus breed) with other royality. its inbreeding between 1st and 2nd cousins. to an extent, over time this is what the outer US stock is doing. they have 'no choice'.

(although on a grand scale)

2. MissB, there are other members on this site with an interest on the subject. i didnt post it for your entertainment.

p.s. you seemed to have an interest when they got a few vitticeps (boxboy) but only when you thought you spotted him first....

[CodeRed]

Originally Posted by Kirby

1. yes, for the purpose of strengthening a weakened stock, somewhat pure barbata would and could encourage adeno free, healthier stronger lines in alot of breeders stock.

although here in australia, its unnecessary to do so.

hybridisation between the p. vit, and p.barbata. doesnt seem to cause any harm, but rather good. this si why its so saught after. if it had similar effects to inbreeding, by opinion on the matter would differ. but considering the 'german giant' in the past. theres nothing to worry about. its better than furthur weakening by producing 'lack of' lines.


2. there are other members on this site with an interest on the subject. i didnt post it for you.

p.s. you seemed to have an interest when they got a few vitticeps.

just confirming how little you actually know ...

[Kirby]

i edited my post, and im assuming your refering to the hybridisation comment. (duh!!)

can you pull up soemepoints about the ill effects between the barbata and vitticeps. as most of the 'non hybrid' perspectives are clearly stated 'my opinion, its wrong'

it is possible between any two species to have a genetic bundle, although obviousely this wasnt all too present between these two very similar species. unless you have some studies or research codered, ????

[firedragon]

Originally Posted by DragonKeeper

Dogs, Dingos, they are crossed all of the time, it takes a lot of the aggression out so they can be used as pets.

And why are Australian animals more special then from other countries?

Cross bred dogs are much better than pures, If you do it right you can take out the bad and just mix the good from both with no hassles.

You can never take out all the bad, I have seen some breeds that are good crossed yet there are plenty of pure breeds that are great, and they look better too, but in the end i think it comes down to the presonality of the dog and the way it trained and raised

[Moreliaman]

I think theres room in the hobby for both, theres a market for it (supply & demand), its been going on for years already anyway, i remember seeing corn x kingsnakes about 15-20 years ago.
Interesting to read others thoughts on it though.

[firedragon]

Originally Posted by Midol

Wrong.

All of Australias top traininers, breeders and vets advocate purebred dogs. Hybrid dogs are not alright, only those who lack basic knowledge and feel the need to justify their ill bred mutts justify it. There is nothing that backs up that crosses are a "good" idea.

ETA: Expanding on this with cattle, cross bred cattle are not bred to be healthy. This is hybrid vigour in the flesh. They are crossed to create meat cows FAST. To reach adult size FAST and in doing this they sacrifice the HEALTH of the animal. So many people overlook this when comparing other animals to cattle. So really, comparing reptiles or dogs to cattle should only be done if you intend to eat your animals.

We should always be promoting our animals in the best manner possible. Creating a hybrid is creating a designer snake, a snake designed by humans for humans. Created only for money. That's a big issue for me, animals such as dogs, snakes and other animals that are not bred in agriculture should be bred for sound animals conforming to the standards of the animal and genetically sound.

Midol i didnt know that about the cows, i think i'm going to stop eating meat again...

[bump73]

Originally Posted by Midol

All of Australias top traininers, breeders and vets advocate purebred dogs. Hybrid dogs are not alright, only those who lack basic knowledge and feel the need to justify their ill bred mutts justify it. There is nothing that backs up that crosses are a "good" idea.
.

BAHAHAHA!!!

Well of course the breeders advocate pure bred dogs it's how they make their money...

As for "all" vets and trainers advocating them....care to back that comment up with some proof???

Even pure breeds are "Hybrids" the breeding was just done a long time ago to get the dog to look or act a certain way...Just look at the labradoodles etc, wont be long till they are considered a pure breed on their own

It's like oralB saying 9 out of 10 dentists use oral B tooth brushes... RUBBISH

Ben

[lazybuddha]

Even pure breeds are "Hybrids" the breeding was just done a long time ago to get the dog to look or act a certain way...Just look at the labradoodles etc, wont be long till they are considered a pure breed on their own

now whose talking rubbish