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26-Dec-03, 06:42 PM
|  | Regular Member | Join Date: Nov-03 Location: British Columbia, Canada | | | |
I hate that. I'm not into crosses but they seem to be gaining popularity in the U.S. I'm seeing alot of crazy stuff being done with crosses. It's a pretty hot topic lately, especially BCIxBCC.
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26-Dec-03, 06:46 PM
|  | Subscriber | Join Date: Sep-03 Location: In the ironically named sunshine coast, surrounded by nerds and nurses | | | |
BCIxBCC ?
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26-Dec-03, 06:50 PM
| | Regular Member | Join Date: Nov-03 Location: British Columbia, Canada | | |
Boa Constrictor Constrictor ( the true red-tails) and Boa Constrictor Imperitor ( common boa constrictor ei. columbian boas). Sorry I'm used to refering to them this way. My bad.  |
26-Dec-03, 06:52 PM
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Hehe there was a loonngggg thread on these awhile ago  |
26-Dec-03, 08:05 PM
| | Regular Member | Join Date: Nov-03 Location: British Columbia, Canada | | |
It's disturbing how common that cross is over here  |
26-Dec-03, 08:06 PM
| | Subscriber | Join Date: Sep-03 Location: In the ironically named sunshine coast, surrounded by nerds and nurses | | |
Was it a long thread ? I blinked and missed most of it even though I started it 
Anyhow the problem with hybrids in captive populations ( NOTE: I said captive populations, NOT wild populations! NOT human populations ! ONLY captive populations! ) is that the hybrid genes will mingle with the general captive population. Aside from diminishing the conservation value of the captive population you end up with a price differential and financial reasons to continue to pollute the captive gene pool. Possible scenario 1.
A newby buys a pair of olive pythons, spends four years rearing them and finally breeds them. He takes the young to show them off to the local herp club only to be told that they are olive/water python crosses and has to put up with derisory comments and recommendations that the young are killed. The local pet shop will only offer $25 each for the young. The young are then sold off (either via the breeder or a pet shop) as full olives (cheap! Only $250 each!) to the next set of newbies and the cycle continues. The governments see that there is no conservation value in the keeping of reptiles and clamps down harder on the keeping of native wildlife. People who have kept and bred cichlids may have encountered this. Possible scenario 2 SA only (maybe).
A newby buys a pair of olive pythons, spends four years rearing them and is then is subjected to avisit by parks and wildlife. The animals are identified as crosses and destroyed the same day. It is illegal to cross breed in SA so a cross breed may live under an official death sentence.
I welcome well considered replies and/or rebuttals to this post.
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26-Dec-03, 08:41 PM
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Grrr hybrids,
Im a naturalist & purist myself.Totally against designer morphs and cross breedings.I have given my opinion on this a million and 2 times all with passionate enthusiasm and negative outbursts created in the posts.Therfore I will limit my attendance in this thread to this one post.
There is many cons in regards to cross breeds.
Apart from those that Fuscus has mentioned there is also the BIGGG possibility that they are either sold as pures or bred from and the offspring sold as pures.Then the problems begin of confusement in the hobby.Just look at diamonds and coastals as well as the childrens species and recently jungles.
Other possibilities are animals escaping or being released.This could reak havok on native flora & fauna.They could become dominant in an area driving off natives,or they could breed with other species creating hybrids in a natural state of wild.
(worse case scenario scientists would eventually considering them a new species and name them,similar to whats happening with natural hybrids).And they could have health issues that breeders do not even consider thinking about before playing god with the gene pool.
Natural hybrids in the wild are acceptable to a degree.
However crossing a Coastal and a Diamond in captivity is a mutant imo.Natural hybrids have evolved to where they are over generations of breedings not just one simple mating of 2 species.Therfore I consider them 2 different species,one a natural hybrid the other a captive x breed.
Many members will share similar feelings in regards to culling animals as murder.But in all honesty it is the only option that will effectively reduce the numbers of them in the hobby IMO.Don't get me wrong I am saddened by every death of an animal to an extent,but in order to maintain the purist of native fauna in any hobby you must rid it of those that are not perfect specimens.(I would also cull deformed animals so as not to pass on deformaties in the future) Culling is a sad but meaningful action and is necessary in the name of conservation.Everyone would prefer to purchase select bred animals right?Those that held back there finest animals in order to produce the finest pure off spring?...Well consider culling as a form of select breeding.Selection consists of only using the finest,purist animals....
PS
The best way to avoid a plague of hybrids is to demolish the market of them by not participating in anyway.This means no purchasing,no breeding etc.
PSS
Nah Fuscus,
the thread was started over Jungle x GTP's by Byjungles.
Alot of heated emotions were posted in the thread from alot of passionate hobbyists.IMO it was an excellent topic and many of the finer points were marked out to accurately educate those less aware of the situation.BUT alot of members deemed the thread argumentative...
(it was a great debate lol)
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26-Dec-03, 08:51 PM
| | Subscriber | Join Date: Sep-03 Location: In the ironically named sunshine coast, surrounded by nerds and nurses | | | |
Whoops, your right misty. There are two hybrid threads going and I got confused.
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26-Dec-03, 08:57 PM
| | Regular Member | Join Date: Nov-03 Location: British Columbia, Canada | | | |
Sorry didn't mean to cause any confusion with the bateater thread. Just thought I should post it as part of the exotics section rather than in a response to this one, like was my first impulse.
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26-Dec-03, 09:09 PM
|  | Regular Member | Join Date: Dec-03 Location: NSW | | | |
I am not entirely concerned with natural hybrids such as those produced from two subspecies of carpet python ocuring in the same areas, but a retic X burm, and jungle X gtp is just not right. Some hybrids make as much sense as a cat X pig.
The unfortunate fact is that I doubt any of us can be sure we have entirely "pure" snake species. They could seem to be pure themselves, but could produce offspring eventually if two snakes with varied genes are mated.
If I ever mated two snakes that produced offspring I could tell were not pure species, Id stop breeding the originals and try to keep as any of the young myself (a very costly and difficult decision, but one that I realise is the only right option other than killing them) and kill what I couldn`T maintain.
Apart from physical markings such as colour (often not a good thing to solely go by), scale counts (which my snake will never sit still for) and DNA tests (Ive heard it done before, but it would be incredibly expensive to hobbyists like myself) is there any way to determine if a snake is 100% a particular species?
Also, is it possible to feed snakes to other juvenile snake species that feed on reptiles as juveniles? (bhp being my main thought)
I am only a "youngin" to the reptile world, so some of what I have said is likely to have an obvious answer. However I believe the main problem a lot of people have against this debate of hybrids (more so the culling of them) seems to be because they cannot accept the possibility of having to destroy something that is A. a living creature of a reasonable level in the food chain, and B. something that they have anticipated and likely become attached to in some way. I personally would feel like crap having to dispose of an animal of mine (be it reptile or other), but am also someone who feels strongly in the natural order of nature (I even consider animal attacks upon humans as if it were a fish or elk being attacked).
Im not sure if this was worth posting, and I do not hope to annoy anyone in any way.
Cheers, Jay
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Look at the silly monkey
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26-Dec-03, 09:13 PM
|  | Regular Member | Join Date: Jan-03 Location: Sydney Age/Gender: 57  | | | |
Nicely stated position, Jay (and others). I'm not one to give advice on this topic, as I'm not experienced enough, but was wondering if the scale count could be done with a shed skin?
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David Lutz - from the LAN down under!
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26-Dec-03, 09:17 PM
|  | Regular Member | Join Date: Jan-03 Location: Sutherland Shire (sydney) | | | |
would it come out as a mixture of one and another, silmilar to that of lace monitors( normal ans bell phase)?
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26-Dec-03, 09:29 PM
| | Subscriber | Join Date: Sep-03 Location: In the ironically named sunshine coast, surrounded by nerds and nurses | | | |
kevyn - your forgiven and don't stop - it all goes into the great pot of knowledge anyhow.
lutzd - scale counts are possible and easier on a shed skin. You can pin the skin to a board to make it even easier.
Jay - well put and you have raised another question. If a captive population is seperated from the natural population, eventually we have two different species (won't happen in my lifetime though). ANd it sounds like you have kept cichlids, feeding of unwanted young to bigger fish is a common , um , remendy.
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