Intergrades? Why Locked???

[SnakeWrangler]

Originally Posted by bigguy

Moose, I read the last 4 or so pages and I can understand why it was locked. Most people on this site tend to get fairly nasty while debating a point, and this is what I saw when I read these pages. The very last post was by Browns who reckons I am full of it. He is entilled to his own opinion just like everyone on this site, but there is no need to become insulting when you don't get your own way in a debate.

This sums up perfectly why that thread was locked, if people could learn to control themselves it would still be open for discussion now.

[AGAMIDAE]

agreed

[Greebo]

I am very disappointed that you felt the need to post this thread Luke. The subject was answered very early on in the previous thread but 14 pages later people were still going around in circles arguing for the sake of argument. There is nothing wrong with healthy debate...the key word being healthy. The fact that you posted a poll on whether breeders can 'make' intergrades despite the many explanations of what an intergrade is <<edited by moderator>>.

On another point, I personally don't find big_guy to be condescending. I am glad that we have a member with so much experience who is willing to answer our questions. If he really wanted to be condescending, he could just sit back and laugh at those of us new to the hobby instead of trying to help us out. I think it may just be a case of tall poppy syndrome.

[moosenoose]

Well the thing is Greebs, it was going somewhere. And the reason I reposted this was simply because everytime I got an answer on something there was another point as to why it wasn't the case- or bent the boundaries a little further to the extent that begged for more questions. I'd be very surprised if you could fully explain it yourself? If you can please PM me and I'll tell you further why I didn't think it all made perfect sense. I still can't make out head or tail from what was posted (not fully anyway), as there was contradictions everywhere. Sure it was getting a little heated towards the end, but I still think it was salvagable. This will get brought up, & brought up again, until it's settled I feel. Whilst anyone has the gumption to tell another member that their beloved diamond is an intergrade or a hybrid we'll always have this debate going on.

And at any rate, about your observation, sure, my question had been answered, sort of, but I don't think it was fully answered for others on here. I am greatly appreciative of Bobs replies, and in no way am I suggesting he doesn't know what he's on about, yet how can I, being the bloke wanting to know more, and a newcomer to the game, work out who is more experienced than than the other.

I believe there are others who think the term "intergrade" means something other than what we are told it does. This debate was good, it doesn't need to get personal, nobody on here needs to prove anything to anyone. It's no big deal and as we've seen before, Bob was involved in a heated debate and walked away from it - this doesn't make him wrong (I'd do the same thing). I can fully understand someone getting tired of debating with others who are hell bent to prove they are right. Toss up the facts - let people on here sort out what they want to believe - IT'S THAT EASY! Some people wil always be as thick as that plank Brownie wants to bang his head on - so sometimes it'll make no difference anyway.

Personally I'm happy enough to find out, from someone in the know, who was doing research on this topic in the way of a field study. So as disappointed as you are in me, I am disappointed that perhaps you felt it necessary to lock this and discipline this "naughty" bunch of kids - it's not a kindergarten, people need to grow up a little on here are acknowledge that others might know a bit more than they do and not get personal about it. Now who the hell had the sig - "why can't we all just get along?" :roll: Makes sense to me.

[diamond_python]

On another point, I personally don't find big_guy to be condescending. I am glad that we have a member with so much experience who is willing to answer our questions. If he really wanted to be condescending, he could just sit back and laugh at those of us new to the hobby instead of trying to help us out. I think it may just be a case of tall poppy syndrome.

AGREED TOTALLY!!

[Bouncer]

I stopped reading that thread solely cuz it made my head spin. I've decided I don't care about hybrids and intergrades, unless someone can tell me what they are in plain english.

[Pike01]

Sorry grebo but this topic is far from answered, and wont be on this forum or anywhere else until proper scientific studies are published.This was a healthy scientific discussion, admitidly it got a little heated as most debates do(just look at the parliment) and that is why you sit over the debate.All theories have to be scrutinized and you never jump to the conclusion till all the facts are in. That why i took offence to Bob posting again on the subject and saying where they meet they dont breed then "end of story" and then saying he wont post on the subject again he will leave it to the "experts". You dont find that a little condescending? I have never said bob is wrong like i said before some points i agree on some i dont.Anyway dont want to babble , sorry to all those i offended and lets do it again real soon ha ha

[Greebo]

but this topic is far from answered, and wont be on this forum

Exactly. Why bother going around in circles. Precisely. Why keep going over the same points over and over. Absolutely. Why keep posting endless hypotheticals. I concur. Why argue for arguments sake. I hear what your saying. I know where your coming from. Lets agree to disagree. In my humble opinion. I think it's all subjective. Lets try to be objective. I agree 100 %. I think we are on the same page. What book are we reading?

[farmdog]

I think that we should take this thread out back and shoot it before it goes to the dogs again.
After reading all 14 pages I'am still a little confused, and wonder WHY another thread had to be done on something that willl inevitably spirwel in into a messy scene where moderator will spend hours deleting post and then eventually locking this thread.
All I can say is that it doesn't matter how much we argue about it the plain fact is that this just another step in evolution that we may never understand and why this could have occured in the first place SO many theories are presented and then scrutinised to a point where you think Why bother with subject in the first place.

[AGAMIDAE]

this topic will never be finished, even with proper scientific publications, there will be always someone out there that will disagree....its happening with lot of theories and other publication...what species is what...what evolved from where...same with intergrades...sure they "may" happen in the wild...where is the proof?...we know they happen in captivity, because some herpers perposely do it...but I will say this one thing....perposely intergrading is illegal and play God is wrong....

[PilbaraPythons]

Pike01
Pike where doe's Bigguy state that intergrades and pures do not breed ?. He never said this in any post. He stated it was uncommon that this happened or that it rarely happened. In one post he stated that when these 2 species interbred the result would be a hybrid as its a cross, even in the wild.

[moosenoose]

Originally Posted by Greebo

Exactly. Why bother going around in circles. Precisely. Why keep going over the same points over and over. Absolutely. Why keep posting endless hypotheticals. I concur. Why argue for arguments sake. I hear what your saying. I know where your coming from. Lets agree to disagree. In my humble opinion. I think it's all subjective. Lets try to be objective. I agree 100 %. I think we are on the same page. What book are we reading?

I think the only reason it was worth going into was because as soon as someone mentioned the word intergrade on this site there would be people jumping all over them. I don't think that's fair. I think whenever this comes up again, people may be more careful with their words. Can anyone here remember the raucus over the colubrid venom debate? People were screaming black and blue to the supposed "fact" that common tree snakes were not venomous - and it was later proven that they were!

So as far as I'm concerned, if only for my sake, this debate has certainly been worthwhile.

I asked one question, people say they've answered it. I asked if an intergrade can be bred in captivity and I've been told the answer was no ( I accept that) I then asked if an intergrade and a pure diamond happened to breed in the wild and was then told it was part of the natural spread of intergrades - so obviously it's an intergrade. Then I asked what was the difference with breeding those in captivity - what would they become and here's where we struck the wall. If I've misheard, or misunderstood what has been said, then I'm sorry.

[hugsta]

I don't think there would have been a deabate at all if integrades were known as Kempsey carpets or Port Macquarie carpets, Morelia spilota kempseyii or macquarieii. The whole reason for the deabate is in the naming IMO.

I think Bob has a lot of knowledge on the topic and a lot of ppl on hear seem to argue or disagree without having the knowledge to debate it. I stopped posting on the topic due to ppls responses and the way they kept asking the same questions without listening to reasonable answers.

There is still a lot to learn, but nature has obvioulsy made a place for them and that is where they stay.

[dee4]

I'm glad I started that thread as it answered a lot for me. Ialso figured out who does actually know what they are talking about and who doesn't. Thanks luke for opening another up so as I can say so.

[tourett]

All thes posts are too long for me to read.
No you cant make an Intergrade.
Tourett