Moral Dilemma - Venomoids + Poll

[cris]

You cant just make a blanket statement saying its unethical, its just your opinion and even if more than 50% think the same its still just an opinion.

Originally Posted by HerpDoc

I would have an issue with using a vet who had no moral fortitude. The same as I have little respect for vets who de-bark dogs, tail dock or bleed horses. It's old school, time these people got into the 21st century and realised that animals cannot be treated as a commodity but should demand our respect and empathy.

So im guessing you dont work with pets or farm animals, because they are animals being used as a commodity by ppl Would you desex an animal so it can be more easily kept as a pet or grow better for more food? This will change the hormones and prevent breeding etc.
would you cut a birds flight feathers? this will stop a bird doing what it does, fly
Voiding a snake has no known side effects(when done properly) and the snake has no use for its venom other than biting its keeper or another person.

They are far superior for snake shows and by being far more appealing to the public they will work much better to allow ppl to see snakes arnt just venom with fangs trying to kill you(the message given by every snake show i have seen)

As for voids being used as trainer animals, i think thats a bad idea better off with some crazy slaty greys or something.

[Robbo]

personally i dont agree with venomoids and dont like the thought of people altering snakes or other animals to suit their needs/wants/desires

but if the vet is good and you trust them i would not have a problem using them as it is helping you look after your animals the best that you can , which i think is the best thing you could do

[TrueBlue]

mayo and sten,-
"Free handling", that is totally different to catching and removing a snake in the wild.!!!

Confidence is probally a better word to use than balls, but it boils down to the same thing.
There is no need to "free handle" a snake during a removal/relocation so your both WAY off the mark. A hoop bag and your hand is all that is required, sometimes a jigger comes in handy if the snake is in suss place, to move the snake into the open so it can be bagged.
"Free handling dosnt even come into it.???
Tongs imo should also be band, as if you need a pair of those digusting things to pick up a snake, once again imo its a sign of incompetence and should not be doing it.

[Mayo]

O.k where to get started

Herp Doc: Do you spade dog's, desex animal's, do you put animals down( Not allowed to do that to humans so there goes your moral high ground.) Human's are regularly taking un-usefull organs out ie tonsils. A captive ven no longer requires venom when it is feed on frozen rats does it, they can't kill them twice. Tell me how this is any different from having your tonsils removed when they are removing your apendix. When they take one they usually take the other. Tubes are all good, but for a snake show like snakes alive etc it's not really showing the snake is it. To show people how it moves and how it reacts. If you can avoid using pinning tool's etc during the show good, but it doesn't allways work like that does it. You say the Vet in question has no moral fortitude or ethics but that is only your opinion, who are you to force your opinion on everyone else. If you don't want to do the proceedure well good for you, if another vet can't see a problem with it, that is there choice. If they are the best herp vet then that's who I would be going to see. Can you tell me what real long term damage is done to the snake as a result, any ? Humans are mutilated ( As you like to put it) all the time by doctor's, what's the differance.

True Blue and Moosenoose, We have to learn to catch and remove snakes somewhere. Yes I learned on Hot's but if I could have learned on Void's I would have. Where do you get confidence from, if you can handle them Void first wouldn't that boost your confidence, and experiance more than playing with a python? If you don't like tong's Trueblue let's see you remove snakes from the places they hide in peoples homes, try doing it by hand. Tools are not a sign of incompetence, incompetence comes from people who try to do it free hand all the time and wonder why they get bitten.

[-Peter]

If you have had no experience with venomous snakes you should not be doing a course to do catch and release let alone one on handling. Mayo, you talk like a novice. I hope for your sake you aren't. Your not the joker who killed the mulga(sic) even though he was safe sitting in his 4WD are you. As recall, that was in Toowoomba.

[TrueBlue]

Mayo sorry mate but imo your wrong again.
Ive removed, venomous and non-venomous snakes from every nook and cranny at peoples homes and cars that you could imagine and have never had to use tongs. IMO they are never needed simple as that and should be BAND altogether.
Like ive already said theres plenty of non dangerous elapids that can be used to gain experiance, even some colubrids will do the trick,ie slatey greys etc.
But as said before as well redbellies are the best hot herp to gain some experiance, they are regarded as non fatal but can still put on a good show if wild caught.
Using captive animals for training is a waste of time anyway as most have calmed down considerably compared to a wild animal.
Gee how times have changed, all you NEW snake catches seem to be a bunch of pussies.
All training should be done with freshly caught wild snakes so that they will behave like the snake that you will be called out to remove, not some calmed down captive animal. simple as that.!!!
I can see a few catchers getting nailed in the near future the way things are going.
Bring back the good old days, when you either had the courage to do it or you didnt, none of this oh please can we use calm captive snakes with their venom glands removed. (rolls eyes).

[bunnykin]

im with you true blue

[bunnykin]

I wouldn't pay that sort of money to be taught how to catch a " broken in" snake again all for the benefit of HUMANS only.

[Mayo]

consequence : no not me I haven't killed any snakes, and I'm not a novice

True Blue: Not a *****, but not an idiot either. I think all that "I'm the hero snake catcher" bollocks went out years ago. If you base snake catching on Courage and not common sense then your going to get hurt. Yes you can pracitse on other snakes that are less venomous and pythons, but I don't see the harm in doing beginner trainning with Void's. Exhabitions would be far safer if the snakes used were voids, and still no one has proven, or said what long term damage is done from the operation, why because there is none.

[moosenoose]

Originally Posted by bunnykin

again all for the benefit of HUMANS only.

My point exactly also!

De-sexing animals has certain health benefits behind it. Like desexing female ferrets, guinea pigs, rabbits and the like for an increase in their overall longevity. Voiding snakes has NO benefit for the animal whatsoever – it is primarily done for the benefit of the individual wanting to keep them. There is no difference to Voiding compared with that of de-barking dogs & de-clawing cats IMO

If this sort of practice becomes more commonplace people will become more ignorant. A line needs to be drawn in the sand in regards to some things, and this is one of them.

PS: I'm out of the debate, I'm pretty sure I've made it very clear what I think in regards to useless and unnecessary proceedures done on defenseless animals...pffff...the next thing we'll be seeing is people who keep those Lionfish having their spines removed! Too bad there isn't the word "VENOMOID" written all over the animal to show it up for what it really is.....at that rate it wouldn't rate too highly in they eyes of the keeper, and I doubt that I'm drawing too long a bow in saying nobody would have it done if that was the case!

[Mayo]

Benefit, no pinning, able to be free handled safely instead of hooked. Most of the benefits are for the humans but isn't public safety worth it for exhabition snakes, where not talking private kept snakes.

[Mayo]

Quote Moosenoose
"De-sexing animals has certain health benefits behind it. Like desexing female ferrets, guinea pigs, rabbits and the like for an increase in their overall longevity. Voiding snakes has NO benefit for the animal whatsoever – it is primarily done for the benefit of the individual wanting to keep them. There is no difference to Voiding compared with that of de-barking dogs & de-clawing cats IMO"

De-sexing, isn't that taking away an animals right to breed

[Bredlislave]

Well said True Blue, if only we could bring back the good old days in every aspect of reptile keeping
Sandee

[Chimera]

Aren't we getting off track here guys. I think the real question is do moral objections (regardless of whether they are founded) prevent you from seeking medical care from certain people despite them offering the best care available in your area?

[moosenoose]

Originally Posted by Mayo

De-sexing, isn't that taking away an animals right to breed

Yes that's true, but there is a benefit for the animal involved. Have you ever seen anything die from uterine cancer? I have. But I’ve never seen a venomous snake die from having its venom glands left in though. It’s a little like caged birds, I don’t agree with that happening either -but it’s widely acceptable. So the overall debate could go as far as saying nothing should be kept by anyone, but that’s ridiculous as the human race has kept pets in all forms for thousands of years. I guess my belief is this, and it’s simple, if you can’t keep something in its natural state, then it should not be kept. We should not be allowed to modify a creature to make it more “manageable” for the keeper. Modify it, or ourselves for longevity, but not for the purpose of personal indulgence.