Moral Dilemma - Venomoids + Poll

[TrueBlue]

Mayo, you missed to point altogether yet again.
Nothing to do with being a "hero snake catcher" at all, those sort of cowboys end up being biten half the time as well.
The point im trying to make is that people NEED to be trained with animals that they are going to encounter in the wild, not in someones collection.!!!!
As for pinning a snake to catch it, WRONG once again, its a very rare occurance that a snake has to be pinned to be caught, or to be displayed for that matter. Really the only time a snake needs to be pinned is to check it out medically, not to be shown to people at a dispay.??
Held up on a jigger is plenty enough for everyone to see it.
Ive done shows in pits over the years with all our hot herps and have managed to show them all safely to the public with out having to remove venom glads or pin them.???
Ive always been safe and so has all the people watching.!!

[Ramsayi]

Originally Posted by Mayo

Benefit, no pinning, able to be free handled safely instead of hooked. Most of the benefits are for the humans but isn't public safety worth it for exhabition snakes, where not talking private kept snakes.

Lets all rip our dogs teeth out so they cant bite and push to have cats declawed so they can scratch us,hell I hate dogs barking and keeping me awake,lets debark them as well.

As far as voiding goes once done to an ven they are still classed as vens and as such the rules and regulations still apply to them.There are still ways to exhibit vens without resorting to voiding them.The only benefit to it would be for the lazy or incompetant exhibitor.It has nothing to do with public safety as the public should be educated that they are strictly look and dont touch so that argument isnt a valid one.

If the vet I used agreed to perform this procedure I would find another vet on principle.

[HerpDoc]

Ok Mayo and Cris, first if you are going to debate something make sure you know exactly what it is you are talking about before you put your 2 cents in otherwise you come off looking very silly.
YES I have neutered dogs and cats - this has a number of consequences for both the animal and general society. Entire animals are at a MUCH higher risk of developing diseases such as prostate cancer, ueterine infection and mammary tumours to name only a few conditions. Furthermore desexing of domestic animals has enormous social benefits as well as it is the only effective way of limiting the numbers of pest species. Not only does this stop animals from breeding out of control but it also prevents the transmission of zoonotic diseases that many dogs and cats carry from being passed to humans as is the case in many third world countries where domestic animal populations are out of control due to no regulations.
YES I have euthanased animals but only when they are suffering immeasurably and this is the only humane thing to do. Euthanasia is an essential part of veterinary practice as it is the final act of kindness that can be performed for a suffering creature. NO you cannot euthanase humans but if you have ever had to deal with a family member who is dying slowly and painfully you may change your attitude. In any respect I fail to see how this relates to the debate.
As far as removing "unnesessary" tissue from animals I can safely say that I have never performed a procedure on any animal that did not have a health benefit and if I did the Veterinary Association would take a very dim view of this.
If you have been reading the previous posts it is not only my opinion that this procedure is unethical but also that of the Exotic and unusual Pet special interest group of the AVA as well so as judged by our peers this procedure should not be performed.
How are humans mutilated by Doctors all the time? If you are talking about plastic surgery etc then this is a different matter. The patient under these circumstances has made a conscience decision themselves to undergo the procedure. The snakes in this case have no say, there is no comparison here.

[cris]

Originally Posted by HerpDoc

Ok Mayo and Cris, first if you are going to debate something make sure you know exactly what it is you are talking about before you put your 2 cents in otherwise you come off looking very silly.

Im not really afraid of that, but did i say something wrong?
All i was trying to say is that you perform operations that will affect the life of an animal, yet you critise others for doing an operation that doesnt have any known effect on the snakes life.

Venomoids arnt needed but i think they have a place in educating the public that cant be filled by swinging around some agro brown snake by its tail. 'Normal' ppl dont like snakes because their venom kills ppl thats all they think of when the see snakes is venom and death, seeing a agro snake at a show enforces this, but seeing a placid snake allows them to see that their is more to them than being able to kill. If ppl dont like snakes they have no reason not to kill them. In that way voiding snakes does have a benifit.

[moosenoose]

Most people can't tell the difference between a carpet snake and a tiger snake anyway Cris, so what’s the point? Better to show people the non-venomous ones being handled than the venomous ones and seeing them draped around peoples necks, freehandled and handed to unwary parents and children in shopping centres. To handle a venomous snake by any other means other than proper handling equipment is not only foolish but delivers the wrong sort of message. Again, no benefit.

Arrrrgh, I’m doing it again!!! I’m shutting up now

[HerpDoc]

Cris what operations do we perform that affect the lives of animals? Can you give an example that I haven't all ready highlighted? The point I am making if it is not clear is that this is putting an animal through unnesessary pain and suffering for what gain? To show a few people some snakes in a pit? If you honestly think that this is going to dramatically change peoples attitudes towards snakes I think you are living in a dream world. When I worked in private practice and saw lots of snakes this did nothing to encourage my fellow vets in taking an interest so a once off encounter at some dodgy show I think will not make a lasting impression on many people.

[Dragoness]

This may have been mentioned already, I havent read all the posts. The way I see this situation is if you're happy with the work of the vet, then keep going to them if there is noone else around who can give the same amount of care. Dont risk your animals because of how you personally feel.
As for the removal of the galnds, Ive never heard of that before (have never had anything to do with snakes) but as soon as I read it and a few replies, this is what I thought: I didnt see it as the original handler wasnt competent, I saw it as he wanted to train other on how to handle venomous snakes. Im assuming he wouldnt tell his students that the snakes have no venom, this way the students would see them as venomous and treat them according. If he told them, they would then not be a vigilant, so he is teaching new handlers the skills needed to handle venomous snakes, but without the risk. (same goes for doing it with pythons, if you know they cant hurt you, you're not as careful) I may be way off base with that, but seemed logical to me.

Cheers

[TrueBlue]

chris, i dont belive voids have a place in education at all.
The agro brown snake that you refer to is what is needed during training for snake catches once they have become confident and competent enough to handle such an animal, as this is what they will likely come accross on call outs.
The animals used regulary in shows etc rarely dispaly this behavour as most are long term captives and have calmed down immensely.
Although the odd agro one dislayed and handled correctly in a pit,ie jigger and hand, or just the way they threat display etc on the ground when confronted is far more educational to the public than a docile void that gets passed around the crowd. That practice imo is actually doing damage to the education of the public as it does not show the true behavour of the animals they may encounter in their back yards or the bush, and in alot of cases will give people false confidence and bites WILL occur as a result, its inevitable.

[bulla_iia]

Originally Posted by phoenix

I think we were all incompetent at one stage, sure its fine to practice with pythons, but as you would know pythons are nothing like elapids to handle.

are you kidding, then come handle my mates adult scrub python, LOL
Just teasing, I agree, there is no python that has the strike speed of an adder. You can usually predict a strike with a python, but have seen vens so unpredictable it is not funny. So there is a difference between vens and pythons, but I still put you up to the challenge with the Scrub

[bulla_iia]

Originally Posted by Mayo

O.k didn't hear that from Australian Veterinary Association Special Interest Group on Exotic animal Medicine, but from the Vet's I have discussed it with seem to think it wasn't so bad. I haven't read anything with any factual baisis against it yet but if you have any please feel free to E-mail it to me. Yes my spelling is bad but I don't feel the need to be to accurate on a chat forum, and what ever I type the first time is how I leave it. If you find it that offensive skip my posts.

Moosenoose, it is better for the snake in the long term as pinning etc is not required. Exhabition snakes are pinned etc, if you could just use bare hands wouldn't that be more comfortable for the snake.

Now I am a bit confused with this statement, but first I will point out that I do not handle vens, nor do I plan to handle them, I just find them facinating and want to lean more and more about them with no intention to handle or own one for that matter.
So the confusion is, if you remove the glands that gives you full right to pick up the snake without pinning, so for example you get a snake with larger fangs than normal, it has no venom but yet still has a temper and strikes, do the fangs still no pose a threat in hitting a nerve and causing nerve damage just as would if you were to inject yourself.

Back on that Scrub Python, which is known to have larger teeth than your average python, and also a very snappy snake. I have been told by a person that know of someone that was put in hospital from the Scrub because it did some severe nerve damage. So I am just putting that story together with my own thoughts and ideas and constructed this question about vens even without the glands.

[Mayo]

Bulla: the fangs if glands removed might do a little damage but no more than a python

True Blue: I don't use pinning but have seen it done in plenty of shows where they do. So I'm not wrong just pointing that out. I don't believe I have been wrong at I just have a different opinion. Not missing the point I just have an opinion of my own.

Ramsayi: There is a bit of difference between teeth removal and gland removal for training purposes. Most Ven bites in Aust have occured in Zoo's and reptile parks during enclosure cleanings and I would hardly call any of those keepers lazy or incompetant.

Herp Doc: I believe I do no what I'm on about, and have a right to my opinion on the matter if you can't accept that to bad. Don't think you are above me or anyone else because you are a vet. You reffered to the Venomoids surgery as mutilation, and correct me if I'm wrong but isn't all tissue removal surgery a form of mutilation I just extended the use of your word to cover some of the human surgery perrformed. I have no problem with Euthanasia, and yes I have watched family die slowly( Let's not go there). I think the only reason your calling us silly is because you have no practical come back for our arguement.


I am yet to see a propper arguement put froward that will change my mind on the matter. Venomoids surgery as far as I can see has very few draw back's and for training purposes, and exhibitors holds many benefit's to both handlers and the public. There is no long term damage done to the snake and since it will never return to the wild it will never need the glands again. I am not missing the point I just don't agree.

[Hix]

I think Chanty's original question has been answered several times, and the thread has gone off-topic as the Venemoid debate usually does.

So I'm closing the thread and you guys can agree to disagree.



Hix