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12-May-04, 07:45 PM
|  | Regular Member | Join Date: Nov-03 Location: British Columbia, Canada | | | | The average back yard hacking redneck interested in making a few bucks off other rednecks looking to fill unmet needs for attention and cover their own inadequecies by showing off to their redneck friends by free handling a 'venomous' snake, thus proving they have big balls.
I'm just guessing...
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12-May-04, 07:56 PM
| | | | Yep, just as I thought not my thing at all. Once again, how is this considered legal, disregarding the obvious unethical issues?
Regards Rina |
12-May-04, 08:39 PM
| | | LOL Kevyn...you are so expressive!  I totally agree - there is no valid reason imho for this cruel practice (and absolutely no justification for doing it without adequate anaesthetic and pain relief) and no benefit to anyone - especially not the poor snakes! |
12-May-04, 09:23 PM
|  | Subscriber | Join Date: Jan-03 Location: Newcastle, NSW | | | | Hi all,
Let me start (so everyone doesn't jump down my throat) by saying I have pretty well no respect for Ray Hoser based on the paper's I've read of his and also based on his ridiculously childish reputation. I DO NOT AGREE THAT ANY VENOMOUS SNAKE, FOR ANY REASON, SHOULD UNDERGO THIS OPERATION, unless of course it was to save the life (somehow) of a captive animal. Of course, in Ray Hoser's context, it is not the case.
I have just read the paper (got down to about the 80% mark then just skimmed the rest) and it SOUNDS like there was aneasthetic offered to the snake. For example:
"Because I had complete control over the snake’s state of consciousness....."
"Means to sedate the snake"
"Sedation - up to an hour"
And he also notes the following points during the paper:
"Appropriate antibiotic (with known benefits in terms of reptile pathogens)" - this was in the checklist of things needed for the surgery
"The whole lower mouth area was then irrigated liberally with Povodine Iodine (Betadine) and Neosporin (Antibiotic)" - stated in the account of the operation.
Now, I'm just wondering what people think of this??? It sounds like he has sedated the snake to a reasonable degree because the sedation time (approx 1 hour) runs in line with the 45mins it took Dr. Harry Cooper to sedate a turtle on his TV program (a result of reptiles' lower rate of breathing).
Like I've already said, I don't support this practice at all and Ray is not someone I'd ever defend but when people say it was all done with NO anaesthetic, I'm not sure they're correct.
I am aware (by his comments at the beginning of the paper) that he may have used cooling as his form of sedation but I'm not sure. It seems from his comment about having complete control over the snake's consciousness that it would be more than that.
What do you all think??? It seems the man is sick though, using the most "expendable" snake.
Simon Archibald |
12-May-04, 10:16 PM
|  | Regular Member | Join Date: Nov-03 Location: Papua New Guinea | | | | G'day Simon,
I too saw those rather vague references to sedation, but nowhere does he name any particular drug or give any details of sedation (which to my way of thinking would be of critical importance in an article like this one ... especially if you are writing it as an instructional piece for novices) ...
I think that these comments are nothing more than typical RH CYA (cover your a@&e) throwaways ... one thing about RH - if he does something he crows about it, and in this case is is strangely silent.
Curious indeed when the rest of the procedure is reported in considerable detail....
Cheers
Dave |
12-May-04, 10:33 PM
| | Subscriber | Join Date: Jan-03 Location: Newcastle, NSW | | | | Good point David :-)
Simon Archibald |
19-May-04, 08:27 PM
|  | Old Administrator | Join Date: Jan-03 Location: Sydney south, NSW Age/Gender: 54  | | | | I just wander if this VAAHS meeting in Geelong happened or if is happening soon.
Anybody know? |
19-May-04, 09:03 PM
| | Regular Member | Join Date: Nov-03 Location: Papua New Guinea | | | Hi all,
This thread has been getting a bit of an airing on the Kingsnake.com venomous forum over the last day or two ... including admissions from the man himself on his emmmm "anaesthetic" methods ... if you could call sticking a snake in the fridge until it is comatose "anaesthetic" ...
Which it isn't actually, but rather than go into that here I'll let all of those interested mosy on over to http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=451448,451448 and follow the vitriole from there 
If any of you would like to see the incredibly sterile and hygienic conditions under which the snakes were butchered, Ray has been dumb enough to actually post them at http://www.smuggled.com/VenArt1p.htm
Cheers
Dave |
19-May-04, 09:05 PM
|  | Regular Member | Join Date: Apr-04 Location: Sunshine coast, Qld, Australia Age: 20 | | | | wat is VAAHS
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19-May-04, 10:40 PM
|  | Regular Member | Join Date: Sep-03 Location: In the ironically named sunshine coast, surrounded by nerds and nurses | | | Thanks dave, Interesting thread.
At this post here http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=451448,456431 , Mr Hoser states "For what it's worth, there has actually been talk here of making venomoid snakes mandatory for displays to reduce adverse bite risk although I would be against such new level of legal requirements. "
I am unaware of any such talk, can anyone shed further light on the subject? |
19-May-04, 10:44 PM
|  | Yes, that Hix Moderator | Join Date: Mar-04 Location: Sydney | | | Hoser probably discussed it with his dog. Technically, he is then correct in stating that "there has actually been talk here of ....." 
Hix
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19-May-04, 10:52 PM
| | Regular Member | Join Date: Nov-03 Location: Papua New Guinea | | | | I agree with that sentiment Hix ... only thing that surprises me is that he hasn't produced any of his aliases (Pete Brammell etc) to jump to his defense ... maybe he finally caught on to the fact the IP addresses can be traced to individual computers ....
Dave |
19-May-04, 11:00 PM
| | Yes, that Hix Moderator | Join Date: Mar-04 Location: Sydney | | | | In the herp world, he is an object d'art.
Hix
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20-May-04, 09:52 AM
| | Old Administrator | Join Date: Jan-03 Location: Sydney south, NSW Age/Gender: 54 | | | | I had impression that Hoser is inteligent man. Must say that he is not acting like one in this ocasion. I am sure that he can work out that most of our herp loving society will be oposing his extreem wiews. |
20-May-04, 12:16 PM
|  | Regular Member | Join Date: Aug-03 Location: Oz - Whoop Whoop | | | He'd have to be as thick as a brick to miss the sentiment Slatey.
lol I remember a quote from BlackAdder and I'll paraphrase it:
Hoser wouldn't recognise common sense if it danced naked on a table singing 'commonsense is here again'.
lol! sorry I apologise if that was too narky.
My observation 0  | | |
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