Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[cockney red]

As illegal.

Originally Posted by ad

Mrs Shep, It is the fact that people want to make more money from their hybrid by claiming it as pure - Not fear of purists.
People advertise hybrids openly atm - how do you percieve this?

[mrsshep77]

I believe money motivates alot of people for alot of reasons! But surely we wouldn't be having this debate if a snakes blood line was 100% known 100% of the time??? It's not possible as unless you're the person who went into the bush and caught that snake with you're own hands you can't possibly guarentee it's pure. All that you have is the breeders honesty or even just the knowledge of where his animals come from!

I do believe there are a majority of breeders who are honest about the snakes they sell, however there will always be a bad egg amongst people won't there!

Ok so let me ask you this Ad (and I mean no offence or malice but it's hard to get emotion across a screen), now I'm speaking hypothetical and my views only BUT what happens to the market that WANT these "designer" snakes (and there will ALWAYS be a market for it) if breeders are openly and constently rediculed and abused over what they do in their own backyard? Lets say in 5-10yrs time? What can you see happening? It won't stop no matter how hard people push, it will only make people seek other avenues ie black market etc

Now I'm not saying we should embrace what other breeders do nor like it at all BUT my opinion is... why fight a battle that can never be won? Hybrids will never go away nor will the breeders who breed them, nor will the market who seek to purchase them! Why not focus on education??? Don't they say that Education is the most powerful tool?

[-aspidites-]

Have a look at some of the hybrids overseas. You might not like them, but I can guarantee that many people will. Aesthetically speaking, some--not all, but some--of those hybrids are absolutely stunning when compared to typical wild-type animals of 'pure' origins. Sure, that's subjective, but whatever.

If someone over here was producing hybrids jags with the aesthetic quality of those you see overseas, I seriously doubt they're going to get less money than they would for a plain old coastal.

[Sdaji]

Originally Posted by Cordylus

Can someone explain to me how these hybrid breeders would make money please???

How is a hybrid ever going to demand the same price as a so called pure line???

By having a pure label.

[Cordylus]

My point exactly. Its all about the appeal. Even the Anti hybrid brigade look at jags and I cant help but think what they think. It will happen, Jags will pop up sooner or later. In whatever crossed form or even just coastal Jags. This will of course hurt the market for the purist brigade, but what can they do about it. I can not imagine anybody not wanting to own a jag. Especially with all the possibilities there are when combining different colours, patterns and traits. Scare tactics is all that can be used to bully people into seeing eye to eye with them. I agree with Sdaji and Mrsshep, it will happen if they like it or not.

[Hsut77]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

By having a pure label.

So people will breed Hybrids so they can sell them as pure????...........or do you mean sell the one's that don't look like Hybrids as pure. And keep breeding Hybrids in the hope something 'Good Looking' will come out?

[Sdaji]

Originally Posted by -aspidites-

Have a look at some of the hybrids overseas. You might not like them, but I can guarantee that many people will. Aesthetically speaking, some--not all, but some--of those hybrids are absolutely stunning when compared to typical wild-type animals of 'pure' origins. Sure, that's subjective, but whatever.

If someone over here was producing hybrids jags with the aesthetic quality of those you see overseas, I seriously doubt they're going to get less money than they would for a plain old coastal.

Which hybrids look good? Other than Carpondoes (which usually look crap as adults anyway) and Jaguars (which only look good because they're Jaguars, not because they're hybrids, just like a hybrid albino Carpet would look good, but only because it's an albino, not because it's a hybrid - it's the trait, it has nothing to do with the fact that they've been hybridised), which ones do people like?

[cockney red]

None of em. They all look like 1950's curtains to me.

Originally Posted by Sdaji

Which hybrids look good? Other than Carpondoes (which usually look crap as adults anyway) and Jaguars (which only look good because they're Jaguars, not because they're hybrids, just like a hybrid albino Carpet would look good, but only because it's an albino, not because it's a hybrid - it's the trait, it has nothing to do with the fact that they've been hybridised), which ones do people like?

[caustichumor]

It's Human Nature, look at the U.S. hobby, they have access to an almost unlimited number of international reptiles, you can have a green anaconda if you want to! Yet there are still plenty of U.S breeders that cross the hell out of anything they can get their hands on. Now Australia has a relatively "small"amount of python species available to keepers, there will always be a section that wants something differant.

[Cordylus]

All the percentage jags look good. But they had to cross coastals with all the other known sub species to get the jaguar trait into the hybrid. Then its just a matter of crossing the hybrid back to each other generation after generation, so you get the hybrids to look more and more like one of the parents. They will never quite be one or the other specie, but who cares when they look that awesome. You also have the problem of the nasty looking siblings. This is where the screw up is going to happen. What will you do with the ugly siblings????

[viper23_1997]

I dont own any, but if i did then id consider , only if they looked awesome like the spider piebalds do http://www.designermorphs.com/images/Spider%20Pied.JPG ,
and if i had someone willing to pay me at least $100)

[-aspidites-]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

Which hybrids look good? Other than Carpondoes (which usually look crap as adults anyway) and Jaguars (which only look good because they're Jaguars, not because they're hybrids, just like a hybrid albino Carpet would look good, but only because it's an albino, not because it's a hybrid - it's the trait, it has nothing to do with the fact that they've been hybridised), which ones do people like?

I can't answer that, the question is completely subjective. What I like, others might not. There's no way one person can answer on behalf of the masses and get it right for everyone :-)

Originally Posted by Cordylus

What will you do with the ugly siblings????

Sell them for less than the attractive ones. They're probably still going to come out looking better than your 'typical' coastal Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[Cordylus]

I agree, on the coastal thing.

[Sdaji]

Originally Posted by Hsut77

So people will breed Hybrids so they can sell them as pure????...........or do you mean sell the one's that don't look like Hybrids as pure. And keep breeding Hybrids in the hope something 'Good Looking' will come out?

Hybrids often look like pure individuals of one taxon or another. Pure snakes often look more like a typical snake of another taxon than their own. These days people are into morphs, so no one wants a typical individual of a taxon anyway. Very often I see things being sold as pure, which are clearly not what they are supposed to be.

I've seen 75% Macs which look less mac than this thing. I could probably sell it as a pure individual of just about any locality of Children's or Stimson's, and no one would have reason to disbelieve. Incidentally, it's the third generation I've produced of the line and it's very much locality pure.




I bought this Tiger fairly recently as a locality pure animal, and was puzzled as she didn't quite look right (although she is still gorgeous!). I did some digging and found out the story behind her (yet to be absolutely confirmed, but I'm working on it). She is locality, but a completely different locality from what I was originally told. Many siblings from her litter have been given out, and now a lot of people believe that they have pure Tigers from one location, when really they're from another, and probably they'll be crossed with animals which really are from that location, producing accidental hybrids, innocently being sold as something they're not. (Yeah, putting the picture up isn't really relevant, but I love her and she is so pretty that I'll take the excuse ).



Does anyone think that when someone advertises "NT Black-headeds" etc, and the seller knows no more than "That's what I bought the parents as", that they're getting something pure? We're already far too late. If you want pure, go to someone who knows where the original animals were collected.

[Dipcdame]

One word comes to mind - why?