Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[disasterpiece7.0]

Originally Posted by whiterabbit

Hey, this might just seem like a newbie question but when talking about crossing sub-species does this refer to the locality of the snake? I just ask this because many of the snakes I've seen up for sale aren't local specific eg stimmies (have stimsons even been classified into subspecies?), so then if there was an intent to breed from it you wouldn't actually know the sub-species.
As a side question, what kind of sub-species are out there that are under debate? does this generally refer to the genus Morelia?

Cheers
WR

As far as I understand it, we're only speaking in terms of sub species, mainly in the morelia genus. Animals of the same sub species but different locales can be crossed without objections. Tully jungles and palmerstones for example.

[Southside Morelia]

Well do the right thing and tell the masses that you know that the snake that that poor unsuspecting purchaser is buying is a X or Hybrid... How do you know? There are that many variations in pattern, colour in most specie, as well as the hard work our top breeders are doing to breed the best looking morph or whatever of that type of snake. Unless, it's completely obvious!
Please, again, *** are you saying, back up your statements with fact!

Originally Posted by amazonian

It is quite obvious that breeders are selling x bred snakes as pures. You can see it quite clearly just by searching through some of the posts here. There has been a multitude of "check out my new *add species here* " threads where the (usually a new keeper) thinks they just scored a great purebred species when infact it was quickly pointed out by numerous members that it was a mongrel/mutt.

[natrix]

Isn't ticking the last box.......'would keep but not breed' ....kinda supporting the activity of breeding them anyway ?

[amazonian]

When a diamond shows saddles or a coastal shows rossettes you know it is a cross breed.
Don't take the majority here as fools, we do know the difference between a coastal & a diamond. It has been pointed out NUMEROUS TIMES by the MASSES. Do a search, I am not your bat boy to do your work for you, if you are interested in knowing or seeing the facts then use the search function.

Why is it you want the name of a cross breeder anyway?
Are you in the market?

[ihaveherps]

Southside, i wish you were able to hold a civil debate at all. Stop typing before you hurt yourself.

[reptilesDownUnder]

Originally Posted by whiterabbit

Hey, this might just seem like a newbie question but when talking about crossing sub-species does this refer to the locality of the snake? I just ask this because many of the snakes I've seen up for sale aren't local specific eg stimmies (have stimsons even been classified into subspecies?), so then if there was an intent to breed from it you wouldn't actually know the sub-species.

In an ideal world, when someone formally describes a subspecies they should provide enough information to let someone else identify that subspecies. So if you bought an animal as Antaresia stimsoni and you want to know if you've got the A. s. orientalis subspecies or the A. s. stimsoni subspecies, you should be able to get the original description of the subspecies and compare the characteristics the author used to differentiate the new subspecies (in this case A. s. orientalis) from the 'original' type (A. s. stimsoni).

The characteristics used to differentiate subspecies will generally be morphological (e.g., one subspecies has <220 ventral scales and the other has > 220 ventral scales). My understanding is that it's not enough to just say subspecies A occurs in the west and subspecies B occurs in the east. It may be the case that the two subspecies are found in different areas (in fact, I think it would be unusual to find two subspecies living in the same area), but there need to be additional points of difference before the subspecies will be widely recognised.

For those of you playing at home, I believe the publication in which the two A. stimsoni subspecies were first described is:

Smith L A 1985. A revision of the Liasis childreni species-group (Serpentes: Boidae). Records of the Western Australian Museum 12 (3): 257-276

I don't have a copy of this article, so I can't tell you what the differentiating characteristics are.

Does that answer your question in a long-winded fashion?


Stewart

[whiterabbit]

thanks reptilesDownUnder, that does shed a bit more light on the topic for me. I guess this type of debate is going to be very dynamic and keep changing with research, as if some sub-species are not fully recognized in a wild population than the captive population is probably never going to be as strict on the individual recognition of sub-species (in particular cases) and in turn the breeding of these species.

I just had a lecture today on breeding captive wildlife (not reptiles specifically, but interesting), and as the main aim of breeding wildlife is typically seen as a conservation technique, i suppose an argument for this topic could be that the further away from the wild phenotype and genotype we get the less reliable the "back up" captive population is. However what are peoples opinions on this, do you view that breeding snakes as a recreational activity can be viewed the same as those bred for conservation?

Cheers
WR

[cris]

Originally Posted by disasterpiece7.0

As far as I understand it, we're only speaking in terms of sub species, mainly in the morelia genus. Animals of the same sub species but different locales can be crossed without objections. Tully jungles and palmerstones for example.

Hopefully many ppl would see both as potentially the same, if you are mixing localaties you are breeding hybrids.

[-aspidites-]

I'd suggest there would be very few people on here who have bred reptiles that haven't produced hybrids by your definition then, cris.

How many people actually asked what locality their animals are? How many people were given an answer? How many people were given an honest answer? Unless your animals are WC by yourself, you have no certain way to know the locality of the animal. Anyone can say an animal is from locality X, but that doesn't mean it is.

[Australis]

Originally Posted by ad

We don't have to follow the yanks - we have the animals they all want - learn by the mistakes over there,

Thats pretty much it for me in a nut-shell also, natural variation is something to treasure - not wash away.

I think half the seppos, hell actually im sure most of them would turf their jaguar carpets in a heart beat for the chance to keep some real carpets like those we have in this fine country of ours, i actually feel sorry for the poor mongrels.

And for those who think America is, in some way ahead of us in any positive regard you really should jump on
a plane sometime and see what its really like, its nothing special really, the hobby is bigger because hell
North America has a far larger population than we Australians for a start, we have a TINY population here
quality not quantity is the way i look at it.

[cris]

Originally Posted by -aspidites-

I'd suggest there would be very few people on here who have bred reptiles that haven't produced hybrids by your definition then, cris.

How many people actually asked what locality their animals are? How many people were given an answer? How many people were given an honest answer? Unless your animals are WC by yourself, you have no certain way to know the locality of the animal. Anyone can say an animal is from locality X, but that doesn't mean it is.

Exactly, also if you consider hybrids to only be crossed subspecies(or higher) some reptiles would be a hybrid one day and not the next, taxonomy is constantly changing.

[-aspidites-]

I agree with you on that part at least, cris :-)

What can be done about that though? Unless we all have a crystal ball, most of us wouldn't have a clue as to future classification.

Breeding locality specific animals would probably limit that, but it couldn't be certain to eradicate it.

Personally, I don't trust being told that my animals are any specific locality anyway. I might be fairly confident of some of them, but never 100% certain, so that doesn't really give me the luxury of breeding such animals even if I were of a mind to.

I don't see the EPA giving me a collection permit either, so that's unlikely to ever change for me :-)

[Beano05]

I would love to see some of these types of discussions held around a bbq face to face. Somethings would be worded very different.
To defend the poor already crossbred snake (I do not support crossbreeding), if it was a healthy and good tempered snake I would not mind having it. I would expect from whom ever I get it from to be honest and give me the full information on it (chances I guess would be low). I dont think the ones that already out there be destroyed. (not that anyone is stating that)

I am glad of this forum as it has given me more information about these wonderful pets. When someone does buy a snake (or any animal for that matter) they should have already decided on a breed and gather as much info possible on it for keeping it in perfect health. one of the main reasons people choose their species is their pattern with all their research they also should be able to spot most hybridization

all in my opinion

[Gabi_79]

I think more to the point of things, for the sake of our hobby, both for and against need to accept that hybridising is going on and will always happen.
Theres no point bashing each other about it, or getting into silly arguements about it. For the sake of our hobby those who are hybridings need to feel they can be honest about cross breeding so that those who want to stay pure can and those who want to cross breed can.
Obviously this relies on alot of honesty from everyone and lets face it there plenty of dishonest folks out there, but if we stop hammering everyone who does be honest about their cross breeding efforts more may follow, which helps all of us.

For the record i'm am strongly against cross breeding never have and never will but after years of preaching the 'pure' arguement i think it would be far more constructive to face the fact hybrids are part of our hobby so lets get used it and agree to disagree.

As for locale crossing and sub-species crossing being the same, it's true to a point, crossing a palmerstion jungle with a tully jungle will still result in jungle hatchlings. Cross a darwin carpet with a diamond......what is it???
Locale crossing still gives you the same sub-species. Obviously on a genetic level all the Spilota sub-species are very similar but to us in the hobby they are very different animals and i don't think anyone would agrue that. No one will tell you that south west carpets are the same as junlges etc.
From a keepers point of view sub-species crosses are hybrids.

[$NaKe PiMp]

mixing localities?you cant prove a locale unless you removed that animal from the wild yourself
gee people crap on about localities its funny