Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[Australis]

-aspidites-

Even some of the most common species that are rarely sold with strictly (as in not "Brisbane" "cape york")
defined localities, some species that come to mind, spotted pythons, Coastal Carpets etc..
You can still track down precise locality pure stock for both species if you go out of your way to track them down.

Tracking down old school "herpers" (not to be confused with "reptile keepers") who collected there own stock
before the licensing came in is a good way to go, in a lot of cases these herpers collected their stock local
to where they lived, so locality is certain, and F1 animals still a possibility even for east coast species.

[Cordylus]

Australis and Ramsayi: If the wildlife of your country was so spectacular as you keep mentioning, why do people and yourselves then feel the need to linebreed the different subspecies?? If they are so amazing then why would you breed brother to sister and father to sister? Is this not in itself also wrong?? I see that as being just as bad as cross breeding. But i guess its a hypocritical syste. Sorry fo going off topic. Maybe we should have a sticky thread asking people that too because these two topics are very similar morally. I would like to see how you justify that. Cause if you are a hybrid hater then you are an inbreeding lover. And dont tell me some of the prettier snakes out there was not created by breeding brother to sister. Just one thought, in the states they have been crossing cornsnakes with things like kingsnakes for many years and yet you can still find pure cornsnakes and pure kingsnakes.
Just my 2 cents.

[reptilesDownUnder]

Originally Posted by Cordylus

in the states they have been crossing cornsnakes with things like kingsnakes for many years and yet you can still find pure cornsnakes and pure kingsnakes.

I think this is the crux of the situation. The only argument I've seen against hybridising is that people are concerned that it will mean that non-hybrid animals will no longer be available. Given the large and vocal anti-hybrid crowd, I think there will always be people breeding non-hybrids.

It's interesting to note that this thread has elicited many passionate and emotive responses, yet no one has answered my very simple questions.


Stewart

[Australis]

Cordylus,

Firstly, as far as im aware there are very few restictions on collecting your own Corns, Kings and Boas in North America, and fieldherpers frequently take home new specimens, so there is a endless flow of new "pure" animals into captivity...

Im not sure what the moral problem with inbreeding is though, i dont have a problem with it... either would the
species confined with a micro distribution, they seem to get on fine...?

Could you explain how its comparable to hybrids, or is it just something you see on the same moral level, its just that one certainly does happen frequently, and other not...(diamond x jungle for example)

[Jeremy Kriske]

Hey strayalis,
What is a “seppo?” What is it short for?

Originally Posted by australis

I think half the seppos, hell actually im sure most of them would turf their jaguar carpets in a heart beat for the chance to keep some real carpets like those we have in this fine country of ours, i actually feel sorry for the poor mongrels.

Do you not think the opposite is true? Would there not be many Aussies getting rid of their stock to acquire jags and other exotics? I’m missing your point here. Yes, there are people (myself included) who want some Australian reptiles, umm….so what? What does that mean? You are better? You are ahead of us? Sorry mate, that’s laughable. There are reptiles from all around the world that are in high demand, in fact, much higher demand, i.e. balls, retics, you name it. You guys are nothing special, sorry. The only thing that makes Australia different is the fact that we can’t get anything from you…anymore. People want what they can’t have, and that is where your false impression that all Americans are dying for Aussie reptiles comes from. Australian reptiles are a small part of US herpetoculture. They are my passion, personally, but not the masses. Sorry guys, you don’t have what we all want. You have what some of us want, and the same is true for you (Australia). I don’t know why it’s continually brought up here, by adults anyway.

I’m always amazed at how many times US herpetoculture is brought up on this site, especially by you. It’s quite flattering really. I know you talk about us in a negative tone, but the simple fact you are thinking about us makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. However, after I’m done feeling warm and fuzzy, I realize how pathetic it is. Why are you comparing yourselves to us? Why is US herpetoculture even a thought in your head? Is it jealousy? Spite? Competition? A juvenile need to feel superior to others? I truly don’t get it, but my money is on the last guess.

Originally Posted by australis

And for those who think America is, in some way ahead of us in any positive regard you really should jump on
a plane sometime and see what its really like, its nothing special really,

Are you saying America is nothing special, or the reptiles in America are nothing special? Either way, why would you say that? We have some amazing reptiles. Venomous lizards, rattlesnakes, snapping turtles, and the only place in the world where alligators and crocs coexist. We also have access to just about every reptile in the world. Why do you feel the need to put this down? And I’d really like an answer to this question Australis. Why do you put us down? Is it simply the fact that some US herpers produce hybrids? That is not consistent. You guys have access to locality carpets etc, yet you still hybridize them. We have a very limited gene pool to work with as far as Australian animals go, so hybridization is inevitable with them. I don’t condone it, but it’s inevitable. However, you guys have access to true locality and even WC animals, yet still hybridize them! Truly a legacy to be proud of.

Keep on truckin’ buddy!

[Shadowmist]

If I were given a hybrid, I would keep it as a non-breeding snake. Other than that I would treat it no differently from any other snake.

If snakes are cross-bred or hybridized, unethical breeders might try to pass them off with out revealing it. Given that the captive gene pool is not going to significantly increase, it allows the possibility of degrading what pure stock there is.

The problem that I see is that with some of the subspecies, it may be hard to identify what may be a ‘pure’ snake from a cross breed..

As for inbreeding, I think that responsible breeders should try to obtain animals from different lines, so that inbreeding (and all the problems that this may cause) are minimized. Selective breeding for a trait will always go one, and where inbreeding has been used for this purpose, it should be noted. I would like to be able to obtain breeding records of snakes at point of purchase. Nothing that can identify the owners of the snakes, but some sort of unique number for the parents of the snake (ideally back 2 generations where possible).

[reptilesDownUnder]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kriske

What is a “seppo?”

Hi Jeremy,

It's rhyming slang - 'septic tank', short for Yank.

No offence intended!


Stewart

[ad]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Kriske

We have a very limited gene pool to work with as far as Australian animals go, so hybridization is inevitable with them. I don’t condone it, but it’s inevitable. However, you guys have access to true locality and even WC animals, yet still hybridize them! Truly a legacy to be proud of. [/size][/font]

Keep on truckin’ buddy!

This is the exact point we are making Jeremy, We don't need to follow your hybrid ways - it is inevitable over there only. It doesn't have to happen here. If you don't condone it as you say - why are you here endorsing it?

[Australis]

Originally Posted by jeremy kriske

Yes, there are people (myself included) who want some Australian reptiles, umm….so what? What does that mean? You are better? You are ahead of us? Sorry mate, that’s laughable

Your happy to bang on about being ahead of "us" and how "laughable" it is.. so why are you moaning about
my comments about the American hobby..??

Originally Posted by jeremy kriske

I’m always amazed at how many times US herpetoculture is brought up on this site, especially by you. It’s quite flattering really. I know you talk about us in a negative tone, but the simple fact you are thinking about us makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. However, after I’m done feeling warm and fuzzy, I realize how pathetic it is. Why are you comparing yourselves to us? Why is US herpetoculture even a thought in your head? Is it jealousy? Spite? Competition? A juvenile need to feel superior to others? I truly don’t get it, but my money is on the last guess.

Im hardly going out of my way to bring it up, its brought up here often enough, but when i read mindless seppo worship im happy to put my 2 cents in, hey what can i say im proud to be Australian and get tired of all seppo love fests, if you dont like that jeremy, well thats just too bad mate, im sure you will get over it.

Originally Posted by jeremy kriske

Are you saying America is nothing special, or the reptiles in America are nothing special? Either way, why would you say that?

If you read the rest of what i had written in that post surely you wouldnt need to ask what context it was in, and that was the hobby.
But now that you mention it i actually enjoyed the small amount of herping i did a long the way in North America, so i have nothing against the native reptile species, give me a break! (although i would of liked to of seem some timbers, but there is always next time).

Originally Posted by jeremy kriske

however, you guys have access to true locality and even WC animals, yet still hybridize them! Truly a legacy to be proud of.

And how does that differ from the situation in your country, dont you also have access to WC locality animals and also have people who hybridize them?


Jeremy if your so easily upset, just put me on ignore "buddy"...



Matt

[ad]

To the people who want them as pets.


Such a noble statement - "I would never breed them" - takes more ethics than a purist imo.


How many pets have you owned for 20 years or more?
Are you prepared to give these snakes room, food and board for 20+ years?
How many of these non-breeding animals could you house?

Housing 2 hybrids as pets v's owning a pair of pure animals and breeding them is an immense gap.
Selling them after a few years because you are bored with them or want a different animal - the new buyer might not have the ethics you have. The pair of pure animals, even if not bred and kept as pets would still be a better alternative, why support hybrid breeding in the first place when we have such an array of beautiful native wildlife available?

[ssssnakeman]

Are you prepared to give these snakes room, food and board for 20+ years?
How many of these non-breeding animals could you house?

Not an issue in this house ad.
I, personally, do have room for this one non breeder in my small collection of animals..
One of the main reason it didnt become a meal for a copperhead was that my daughter seems to have taken a liking to it.
No doubt, she will move out in a few years and may even take her "pet" with her.

[ad]

sssnakeman, I agree - you have taken this animal on, with the conditions you have set for yourself is great. I am moreso talking about people shopping for animals. also, your daughter would still take her 'pet' with her if it was a pure animal.
I would say your case is a rarity in this scenario, and most newbies would not realize the commitment it is to keep a snake for its lifetime, a lot of circumstances can change for the ave human over 5 years - let alone 20.

[Fossilman]

Am i missing the point here ad or are you saying that because a particular snake is a hybrid and non-breeding that whoever owns it is more likely to get bored of it and sell it?

Do you think that everyone who owns a snake wants to breed then? Im confussed by your post sorry. Are you saying that its a bigger commitment to keep a hybrid for 20yrs versus a pure bred? Not having a go at you or anything either.

[ad]

People get as bored with pure animals as they do hybrids - when they sell the pures - no problem.
When they sell hybrids, the new owner might call them what they closest resemble and on sell the animal or breed it as pure. The original ethics of 'I would never breed it" are now out the door.



Most people who are saying I would never breed it - are implying they want to or are breeding pythons - a big attraction to the hobby and one that also returns money that can help fund your hobby.
How many breeding tanks would you be prepared to house non-breeding animals in? if you intend to breed animals. if not and you just want a pet - A pure snake makes just as good a pet as a hybrid surprisingly enough.

[Cordylus]

What i dont get is that the definition of a hybrid: The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races. I cant seem to find any mention of it being on a subspecies level? Is this because locality animals are judged according to their appearance and colour? Wich is of absolutely no importance when it comes to proper taxonomy. Pardon my ignorance, I'm just trying to make sense of what the real issue is. So some private keepers came up with names for different localities, where these locality animals scientifically scrutinised to justify their naming? Also, how many times does nomenclature get revised as our understanding of it increases. Hybrids between species also produce unviable offspring? If these snakes were so different why do their offspring hybrids breed then? Sorry so many questions. I find this very confusing. How many times have animals been reclassified in the past only to be changed back to what was thought of their genetic link previously. I can see the point in not breeding different species to each other, but sub species whats the big deal!