Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[cris]

Originally Posted by junglepython2

A morph and a hybrid are two totally different things, its like trying to compare native snakes with domestic dogs.....

Most people don't have a problem with morphs, though some do prefer wild type animals but thats not really relevant to this thread.

Dogs are a good example really(in this case), most domestic breeds are simply "morphs" created through line breeding and selection for weird/good looking/profitable traits or mutations, this is widely considered acceptable and even desired by many snake breeders. Compare a domestic dog to the wild type and its hardly the same thing IMO... yet when someone does the same thing rapidly through X breeding its the end of the world. This is where i get lost in the whole mob mentality on this issue, most see hybrids as being bad yet mutations and weird looking traits are seen as some sort of status symbol and often used by ____ to compare the status of herpetology in one country vs another

IMO there is trying to be close to wildtype or trying to be fake...

[ravensgait]

Quote""IMO there is trying to be close to wildtype or trying to be fake...""

Cris, why do you keep the reptiles you have? Is it because you like the way they look? I like snakes but the ones I keep are the ones I like the looks of.. Here The Ball python Morphs have been all the rage the last number of years. They are where the money has been, big money in some cases as much a 100 thousand dollars if you can believe some of those guys. I kept a few way back when and still have one now and then that I take in on a trade but don't keep them around long as I don't really care for their looks. They come in some killer colors and patterns but their build and duck looking heads just don't do anything for me.. I know of a number of people who keep and breed a number of Balls to finance what they truly love, not something I want to do.

I have some of the rarer animals like Boeleni, some would say they are a status symbol but I have them because they are without doubt about as good looking a snake as I've ever seen and are unusual in temperament as well. I also have a few crosses that I have for the same reason I like the way they look and have bred a few crosses as well such as my Super Nova Jags hey you'd have to have no heart beat to think they were not at the very least interesting looking critters.

I also have a number of what we call types as well as some locality animals and again because I like how they look. I like Coastals but can't say I like the looks of all that I have seen, not much for jungles but have seen a few I like and have a few of them. I noticed a few people in this thread say they only like the wild type looking animals, hey all well and good you like what you like.

Your analogy about dogs well I can't agree that they are morphs as many breeds that have been around awhile were bred for a reason I guess tools fits . The herding breeds, hunting dogs ETC were well, designed and built to do a specific job. People haven't built Morph snakes they have taken what nature made and I guess in some ways designed colors and patterns in them using what was already there. But if you really look at it like that anyone breeding for color and or pattern in any snakes is doing that same thing IE taking something natural and breeding it towards what that person prefers. Same could be said of those breeding Crosses and Hybrids they are trying to make something they like. Anyone breeding snakes is doing the same thing hoping to create something they like.

Some like to throw out the money thing as the reason people breed Crosses and hybrids, Hey in the food industry there is big money in Hybrids and crosses we eat the results everyday. But in snakes there isn't much money to be made with anything much less hybrids and crosses. Sure some few people have made a lot of money of Balls but most just make a little . I am also sure that like in breeding any animal some do it just to see if it can be done and what comes from the breeding.
Yet people accuse those breeding Crosses and Hybrids of doing it all for the money yet these same folks sell the animals they breed so go figure. It all comes down to what you want to have and I feel you should be able to have what you want.. I just don't like seeing people and their animals attacked and insulted because someone else disagrees with what that person likes and has. Randy

[ravensgait]

Originally Posted by ad

So, the whole 'freedom of speech' thing has you bothered?
"don't think I have the right to tell others what they can and can't do".
Glad you think I wield so much power over the herp community. I dont hold a big stick over every herper telling them what to breed - what 'right' have you got to suggest that?
I am giving forward advice, opinions and reasons - so are you - but yours about the fact that I shouldnt? - rather than anything about cross breeding animals rights or wrongs?
Youv'e lost track of any debating about cross breeding pros and cons, Im not interested in debating your "rights to free speech" guff,

No Add you are what many would call a Zealot, reason has little to do with your argument. You don't give out advice you try to intimidate others to your point of view and there is no reason in your argument you come across as it has to be Ad's way or the highway. (still having trouble owning your opinions I see) What discussion could there be with you. Your opinion is set in stone, a thousand years ago you'd have been yelling the earth is Flat!! and insulting and attacking anyone who disagreed. Facts and discussion are not something you're interested in you just seem to feel the need to rant about this subject. You don't like hybrids fine , Myself and others do so what is there to discuss? hey I tossed you a couple of bones a few post back but you didn't take them and run with it..

We also have the attacks and insults by you and your sidekick Australis on America and Europe. Hey I can understand the two of you being a little jealous as we can have and keep what we want but instead of insulting us why not work to change your laws so you too can have and keep what ever your heart desires and your wallet can handle.
It's strange, I know of a number of Aussies and folks from other countries that hang out now and then on our forums and I can't remember once seeing anyone attack or insult where they come from, kind of interesting that. Randy

[stevel]

yes i will cross the jags to anything that breaths !

[ravensgait]

LMAO Steve hope you don't have cats and dogs they might be a bit offended.. Randy

[cement]

I guess the poll shows that most people that got to vote here are "naturalists".
Definition of someone who likes things the way they evolved naturally. Generally these people appreciate the true beauty of nature and are put off by people who like to play god and toy with themselves while striving to have the BIGGEST this and the BRIGHTEST that.
I won't be crossing sub species, because I don't actually feel I have the right to fiddle with naturally occuring species.
We've been down this road before, haven't we Randy. You take everything as a personal attack on your country.

[ad]

I couldn't agree more Cement,
Randy is banging on about what??? the fact he thinks Im a zealot - a great debating point for the favour of cross breeding,
Even though the poll indicates I am in the majority, he still feels the need to defend.... what? His own right to freedom of choice? lol More than half the "i want to cross breed' votes would come from internationals too!!
Lucky we dont need liberating, hey.

[Cordylus]

Well said Randy!!! Its funny how us Australians hate the foreigners isnt it??? And the poll in favour not crossing is based on what. What happens to other forum members when they say they like Hybrids??? Being Bombarded with the abuse by senior members?? It boils down to what I like. Thats all.
Still cant see these Big Guns adding their names to their posts. Well I guess we dont all have the balls to claim our words.
Nicole

[jellybelly]

ok i have read a good amount of these posts but still cant work this hybrid thing out

how is it any different to breed a tully jungle to a palmerston jungle, or a qld bhp to a nt bhp, compared with breedin a qld carpet python with a south west carpet python. Sub species are just geographic location so i dont get the difference here.

i dont get it, maybe its cause i dont have snakes, but still doesnt make sense.

[reptilesDownUnder]

Originally Posted by jellybelly

how is it any different to breed a tully jungle to a palmerston jungle, or a qld bhp to a nt bhp, compared with breedin a qld carpet python with a south west carpet python.

There's almost no difference. There's a small, arbitrary difference when it comes to paperwork. But from an ecological point of view they are two closely spaced points on a continuum.


Stewart

[jellybelly]

well thats what i thought, apart from the human asserted nomenclature if this and the licensing crap (ie anything that humans have imposed) i couldnt actually see any difference, therefore by that way, unless you are breeding across species, ie carpet with a woma, then you are not hybridising. otherwise we have to go to the other extreme and say unless you are breeding with locality specific animals soley you are hybridising

Thanks i think i get it now

[Australis]

Originally Posted by ravensgait

We also have the attacks and insults by you and your sidekick Australis on America and Europe. Hey I can understand the two of you being a little jealous as we can have and keep what we want but instead of insulting us why not work to change your laws so you too can have and keep what ever your heart desires and your wallet can handle.
It's strange, I know of a number of Aussies and folks from other countries that hang out now and then on our forums and I can't remember once seeing anyone attack or insult where they come from, kind of interesting that. Randy

randy,

First off, im no ones side-kick and no ones mine, there are many people who share the same view as
Ad and myself (i see cement also appreciates his countries native fauna), doesnt mean hes in cahoots.
Your posting how hard done by, you and your country is, being put down, then your happy to turn around
and call someone a "zealot", geeeez your a top bloke randy, although i wouldnt expect anything less.

Im not sure why you keep bringing up your access to non-australian animals, its has NOTHING to do with
this thread at all, if your not keeping in Australia, your comments on this thread hold no weight either, not
even sure why your posting.

I can only speak for myself (even though i know many share the same interest as me) when i say im not the
slightest bit jealous of Americans or Europeans access to non Australian reptiles... but you dont seem to
comprehend this, i can keep a lot of non indigenous bird and fish species, but im really only interested
in keeping indigenous species....... are you following yet?

Why dont you go herping (google it) or something, insteading of belittling Australians.

Matt

[peterjohnson64]

From what I understand, in Australia we have the following types of Carpet Pythons: Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles, Murray Darlings, Darwins, Bredli and Imbricata. All of these animals can interbreed and produce fertiel offspring. Even the people in the states are saying that their animals are whatever percentage diamond and whatever percentage coastal etc. This all requires someone to knwo what the parents are to make that claim.

Do you like having all these different types of Carpet Pythons? I do. And I want to keep it that way.

If we continue to interbreed the differnt types then you can see a time in the future when, in captivity, there will only be "Carpet Pythons" that look differently. Is that what people want? I certainly don't.

As opposed to the States, we dont have a limited gene pool of each individual sub species in Australia. If we want to continue to keep having these different sub species then the ONLY way to do that is to stop hybridising.

So sure, if you want to develop snakes that you can merely advertise as a snake then go for it. If, however, you want to keep Australia's native animals as they are (and, by the way, how nature made them through natural selection) then please stop crossing the sub species.

Now my other concern from this thread - all the posts seem to agree that crossing is wrong. Yet 48 people have already stated that they would do it. Yes, thats 48 people already indicating they would breed mongrels. That in itself is scary IMHO.

[jellybelly]

Originally Posted by peterjohnson64

If we continue to interbreed the differnt types then you can see a time in the future when, in captivity, there will only be "Carpet Pythons" that look differently. Is that what people want? I certainly don't.

This is a totally non-sensical arguement. otherwise we wouldnt have staffies, chihuahua, great dane etc. people have been keeping dogs for longer than pretty much anything else and have been inbreeding and hybridisiing these dogs for ever.

And yet there are still a plethora of breeds of animals.

There will always be purists, and there will be the (and cause i am an old fart i am going to blame it on the youngens) generation x people, who always want something bigger and better than there mate, somethin different. These people wont be herpers as such, more so they will be a person with a pet,and it just happens that the pet is a snake, so therefore linage and breed etc, wont make a slap of difference. THey just wan what they think is cool.

[ravensgait]

Concrete,, Quote"" I won't be crossing sub species, because I don't actually feel I have the right to fiddle with naturally occuring species.""
Ah so you must not own or breed any animals then, why hang around a reptile site then? Yeah I know you're just being a hypocrite. As owning and breeding reptiles goes against what you say in the quote above. I know I know in your world it's do as I say not as I do LMAO.

Your comment reminded me of something a friend of mine said once. Humans are a part of nature so what ever we do must be a work of nature.. So there by humans breeding Crosses,Hybrids or what have you, it must there for follow that we are , well you get the picture lol..

Ad, what is there to debate with you??well unless you want to try and convince me the world is flat or than humans were trans planted to Earth from some where else. You have laws in most your country that say you can't create hybrids or crosses as I pointed out before but I guess that flew over your head, most folks don't want to publicly admit to breaking the law or thinking about breaking the law.

And boys one thing I don't do is take things personally, heck what are the odds that we'd ever meet ? yeah slim to none so why would I get upset by what a couple of Internet jockey's say. Hey if nothing else you a little typing practice