Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[ravensgait]

Quote""however, you want to keep Australia's native animals as they are (and, by the way, how nature made them through natural selection) then please stop crossing the sub species.""
If that is what you want then you best get after your lawmakers to ban the private ownership of these animals.. Randy

[peterjohnson64]

Originally Posted by jellybelly

This is a totally non-sensical arguement. otherwise we wouldnt have staffies, chihuahua, great dane etc. people have been keeping dogs for longer than pretty much anything else and have been inbreeding and hybridisiing these dogs for ever.

And yet there are still a plethora of breeds of animals.

There will always be purists, and there will be the (and cause i am an old fart i am going to blame it on the youngens) generation x people, who always want something bigger and better than there mate, somethin different. These people wont be herpers as such, more so they will be a person with a pet,and it just happens that the pet is a snake, so therefore linage and breed etc, wont make a slap of difference. THey just wan what they think is cool.

Jellybelly, do you realise that all dogs are merely canis lupus familiaris? All of them are the same species. No subspecies or different types of scientific names. Really, they are just canis lupus but because they now look so much different to a wolf they added the familiaris to indicate that they are actually a domesticated wolf. What you call Staffies, chihauhas etc are merely human interpretations of different morphs of the wolf. Even a dingo is Canis lupus.

Our carpet pythons are actually different species (spilota, Imbricata or Bredli) or sub-species (all the spilota complex).

So what you call "hybradising" a dog is actually no different to puting an albino carpet over a hypermelanistic one to try to make one that looks different. True hybradising would be putting a grey fox over a red fox.

But then, what does this have to do with it anyway. As I said, I want to keep native australian animals. Personally, I wouldnt put an NT frilly over a Qld Frilly, or an NT BHP over a Qld BHP either. So even if the spilota complex were merged into one species then I still wouldn't want to see a Sydney Carpet crossed with a Tully Carpet. Thats just me.

But if you merely want to make designer snakes that are morphed and crossed to make more desirable pets then that is your perogative. I agree, we have done this to Canis lupus over thousands of years.

And as for writing to the law makers. I am more than willing to put my money where my mouth is there. In fact, I have today finished a submission that Mac Herps will be making to the NSW Licensing Review that recommends that we make hybradising reptiles illegal in NSW.

[jellybelly]

Thanks for reinforcing my point. I am making no reference here to man made nomenclature. What i am saying is that things just wont be blended to the point where people dont know what what is. I dont own snakes, and breeding doesnteven interest me.

My point is merely the fact that we dont just have one dog barely distinguishable from another, we have many different types of dog. Similarly, just because some people are, what some call hybridising, isnt going to mean we are going to have a single snake called Morellia SNAKE.

But you have brought up that very interesting and pertinent issue. Some people say that (as you have alluded to) putting a NT X over a QLD X is hybridising, while others say that being a sub - species to one another is not hybridising.

Just doesnt make any sense really as there doesnt appear to be a clear cut definition if you will of what really constitutes hybridising.

As far as the laws are concerned, this isnt going to change a thing, your not supposed to breed alibinism but people do.

May be there is no simple answer for it.

Maybe the idea of a national breeders register, similar to pedigree dogs, which have to be certified (or better still DNA tested as in the UK), having this certification will mean people will know exactly what they are buying.

Laws dont seem to work real well, maybe education and having systems in place to make it more worth while to buy pure is the best way.

Probably a very tricky and hard question really.

Oh and by the way, one of the major reasons that all dogs are the same species is because they are a domestic animal, but still this has no bearing on what i was saying.

[junglepython2]

Please Randy do you really think we are jealous of the American herp industry??? I would like to bet if a similar poll was held on legalising exotic imports the majority would vote no, so I can't see how you we can be so jealous of what you have.

The majority here have clearly voted against hybrids, why can't you accept that? If you want to breed them over in the states then go for it, no one is stopping you. However the majority here want to keep things pure. I'm not sure what it's like over there but keeping native fauna here isn't some god given right it's still a privilege so your "freedom to do what you want" arguement doesn't hold much water.

[C'baoth]

ssnakeman that just looks like a standard coastal to me .

Personally I think that the rewards of line breeding in this hobby is the ultimate goal . Cross breeding Morelia is cheating & not at all something that has any value to me . I love morphs , but only ones that are the product of years of dedication to line breeding a particular subspecies . A cross bred mutant has absolutely no value to me , although it may be a awesome looking snake , at the end of the day it's just a cheap imitation of what could have been a lifetimes work .

[ssssnakeman]

ssnakeman that just looks like a standard coastal to me

What it looks like and what it is is two different things ...
M.d and coastal in that one.

[C'baoth]

That's the beauty of Coastals though . No 2 are the same . They are a great starting platform for a breeding project because there is so much variation within the same clutch .

[C'baoth]

Honestly , I just don't get it . Everyone is into their own thing & that's cool , but I love what is already available & what is going to be available from the produce i've seen from selected breeding . It just scares me to think of all the deception that is undoubtedly going to happen as a result of all this as people try to sell their reptiles to a market that isn't in my opinion ready to embrace Xbreds .

[ravensgait]

Originally Posted by junglepython2

Please Randy do you really think we are jealous of the American herp industry??? I would like to bet if a similar poll was held on legalising exotic imports the majority would vote no, so I can't see how you we can be so jealous of what you have.

The majority here have clearly voted against hybrids, why can't you accept that? If you want to breed them over in the states then go for it, no one is stopping you. However the majority here want to keep things pure. I'm not sure what it's like over there but keeping native fauna here isn't some god given right it's still a privilege so your "freedom to do what you want" argument doesn't hold much water.

Where have I refuted the results of the poll? or tied to tell anyone or even suggest what they should or shouldn't breed?
As for being jealous I don't know if you are or not, was just commenting on how some liked to take shots at American and European herpers. Hey if you don't want us around start a poll to have us excluded and maybe the admin will do that for you.
Heck I could care less if you like crosses or hybrids or not but I don't think anyone has the right to tell others what they can and can't breed.

Now as far as that poll goes I would imagine from his comments that Ad, voted against hybrids and crosses. Though I have to wonder why he has had such a change of heart? He used to seem to feel they were pretty wonderful, well if you can go by his past comments made on this site.

So JP he seems that people can change their minds about things who knows 10 years from now I might be against them, though I really doubt I'll be trying to tell other that they should breed them... Randy

[urodacus_au]

Originally Posted by jellybelly

Thanks for reinforcing my point. I am making no reference here to man made nomenclature. What i am saying is that things just wont be blended to the point where people dont know what what is. I dont own snakes, and breeding doesnteven interest me.

My point is merely the fact that we dont just have one dog barely distinguishable from another, we have many different types of dog. Similarly, just because some people are, what some call hybridising, isnt going to mean we are going to have a single snake called Morellia SNAKE.

But you have brought up that very interesting and pertinent issue. Some people say that (as you have alluded to) putting a NT X over a QLD X is hybridising, while others say that being a sub - species to one another is not hybridising.

Just doesnt make any sense really as there doesnt appear to be a clear cut definition if you will of what really constitutes hybridising.

As far as the laws are concerned, this isnt going to change a thing, your not supposed to breed alibinism but people do.

May be there is no simple answer for it.

Maybe the idea of a national breeders register, similar to pedigree dogs, which have to be certified (or better still DNA tested as in the UK), having this certification will mean people will know exactly what they are buying.

Laws dont seem to work real well, maybe education and having systems in place to make it more worth while to buy pure is the best way.

Probably a very tricky and hard question really.

Oh and by the way, one of the major reasons that all dogs are the same species is because they are a domestic animal, but still this has no bearing on what i was saying.

Very well written, pity the content is mud. You said it in your first paragraph, you dont own snakes....

[Australis]

Originally Posted by ravensgait

Where have I refuted the results of the poll? .. Randy

Originally Posted by ravensgait

You know you could start a poll asking who does illegal drugs and I bet you'd get a few brave honest souls who'd take the risk and admit it but I bet most even if they had would vote 'no never tried em" LOL I'm not really all that surprised by the results but then there are respondents who feel that breeding different localities together are hybrids, not trying to single anyone out but there does seem to be a prevailing lack of knowledge of the subject by many here.............Randy

Randy,

Speaking of a lack of knowledge regarding localities, so you dont consider a locality cross a hybrid, rendering anyone who disagrees to be suffering from a lack of knowledge?

Ill stick with advice from Australian field herpers with decades of experience, over someone who i really doubt has a single shred of field experience with Australian M. spilota, unless my assumption of your experience is mistaken, your not qualified to comment.

[ravensgait]

Well Astralis it isn't a hybrid and breeding localities of the same sub species wouldn't even be a cross. The comment was due to so many not seeming to understand what a Cross or Hybrid is and your post above makes my point as you don't seem to know either.. As for the other comment of mine you quoted I think it is easy to understand just what I wrote, I didn't notice anything I said that refutes the poll in this thread.. What going out in the bush has to do with understanding what a species , sub species, hybrid or a cross is I don't know. It doesn't look like going out in the bush seems to have helped you understand what a Hybrid or Cross is that's for sure .

Oh and Again notice how I own my comments and make it easier for people to reply to me by using my name.. Randy

[sparticus]

if i bought a cracker of a snake to findout it was a hydrid, i would go off my nut.Keep it pure, there are good animals coming out of each species and sub species already.This is why they are called hold backs..Because people hold them back so they can use these to create better coloured and better animals .Work on creating good lines from these, dont take the easy way out and hybridise.As far as i am concerned if you need to hybridise then you havent the patients or know how to be breeding reptiles.

[cockney red]

Totally agree.

Originally Posted by junglepython2

Please Randy do you really think we are jealous of the American herp industry??? I would like to bet if a similar poll was held on legalising exotic imports the majority would vote no, so I can't see how you we can be so jealous of what you have.

The majority here have clearly voted against hybrids, why can't you accept that? If you want to breed them over in the states then go for it, no one is stopping you. However the majority here want to keep things pure. I'm not sure what it's like over there but keeping native fauna here isn't some god given right it's still a privilege so your "freedom to do what you want" arguement doesn't hold much water.

[Australis]

Originally Posted by ravensgait

Well Astralis it isn't a hybrid and breeding localities of the same sub species wouldn't even be a cross. The comment was due to so many not seeming to understand what a Cross or Hybrid is and your post above makes my point as you don't seem to know either.. As for the other comment of mine you quoted I think it is easy to understand just what I wrote, I didn't notice anything I said that refutes the poll in this thread.. What going out in the bush has to do with understanding what a species , sub species, hybrid or a cross is I don't know. It doesn't look like going out in the bush seems to have helped you understand what a Hybrid or Cross is that's for sure .

This thread is in the context of the hobby, and in this hobby as far as im concerned for example a Morelia spilota mcdowelli from NSW, bred to one from Far North Queensland is a hybrid in the hobby sense.

Guess you wouldnt see many true animals over your way would ya.

Originally Posted by ravensgait

Oh and Again notice how I own my comments and make it easier for people to reply to me by using my name.. Randy

I sign my name when i feel like it, usually when replying to those i know, not on request.
You cant even manage to spell Australis correctly as it is, wouldnt want to push you any further.