Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[jellybelly]

Originally Posted by urodacus_au

Very well written, pity the content is mud. You said it in your first paragraph, you dont own snakes....

I am writing to say sorry to the herp community of this website, i was not aware that in order to post, have an opinion, or be able to form a rational thought process about ecological matters etc, one must actually own SNAKES.

So to all those out there that dont own snakes, just remember your thoughts on anything dont account for scrap.

Well at least now i have been set straight, so the more animals (sorry, SNAKES) you own therefore te more valid, and educated your opinion becomes. How silly of me.

WHat a relief though, now i know that guy that just got done for corns etc in Melbourne last week was right for doing what he did cause he had stacks of snakes. So his opinion and ideas are the right ones.


Or i could just say if you cant formulate any constructive contribution to the case at hand pull your head in and stop flexing your incapacity for intelligent conversation or social reasoning.

[junglepython2]

Originally Posted by ravensgait

As for being jealous I don't know if you are or not, was just commenting on how some liked to take shots at American and European herpers. Hey if you don't want us around start a poll to have us excluded and maybe the admin will do that for you.
Heck I could care less if you like crosses or hybrids or not but I don't think anyone has the right to tell others what they can and can't breed.

I don't think I've ever taken shots at American or European herpers, as long as Australia maintains its import/export laws what you do over there has no affect on our stocks, and you can hybridise all you want. And I assure you I'm not jealous of what you have as I'm very much in favour of banning exotics. That's not to say you don't have access to some great reptiles.

Hybridising over here however, does impact on our ability to acquire pure specimens, mainly due to the unscrupulous nature of many mongrel breeders out to make a quick buck. And as long as the majority want to keep it pure, I think they should be able to tells others what they can't breed. Why should the minority destroy it for the majority?

And unlike overseas, our pure stocks are still for the time being reasonably healthy. I just hope it stays that way. Remember all your original founder stock would have been pure, and it is the hybridisers that have now made it very difficult to acquire anything at the subspecies level. Forgive me, but I don't want to be in your shoes in 10-20 years time.

[ravensgait]

JP can you show me where I ever said you were Jealous and had taken shots at Americans ? I have no idea why you felt the need to throw that out.

""unscrupulous nature of many mongrel breeders "" and you know they are this how? or is this Just Your Opinion .. that's a rhetorical question by the way.

Wont get into the pure bit .

Ah 20 years from now gee I wonder , 20 years ago they were all just Carpet Pythons go figure, in 20 year they may be once again Just Carpet Pythons, I mean it's not like you can tell the Sub species apart even by DNA testing. Don't toss out the 'Well they look different' bit because dogs will likely come up again.

Nothing to forgive as we'll still have tons of critters around and you'll still have your Aussie critters but then who knows what might happen in 20 years.. Randy

[-aspidites-]

When it comes down to it, it has been done before, will be done again in the future and no doubt is being done right now.

The more people become aggressively resistant to the idea, the more likely people are to pass things off as pure when they're not. If they weren't going to be persecuted, the primary reason for misrepresenting hybrids would be, I believe, ignorance.

Personally, I'd much rather people cease attacking those who're breeding hybrids. There's nothing you can do about it and by doing so, I believe you're just increasing the likelihood of people misrepresenting animals out of fear.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, which would you prefer, people breeding hybrids and passing them off as 'pure' or people breeding hybrids and passing them off as just that, hybrids?

If people had no reason to hide it, they would likely advertise them as what they are and I think the chances of our 'pure' animals becoming 'tainted' would actually decrease.

[cockney red]

Very sensible opinion i think. Would become a case of better the devil you know.

Originally Posted by -aspidites-

When it comes down to it, it has been done before, will be done again in the future and no doubt is being done right now.

The more people become aggressively resistant to the idea, the more likely people are to pass things off as pure when they're not. If they weren't going to be persecuted, the primary reason for misrepresenting hybrids would be, I believe, ignorance.

Personally, I'd much rather people cease attacking those who're breeding hybrids. There's nothing you can do about it and by doing so, I believe you're just increasing the likelihood of people misrepresenting animals out of fear.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, which would you prefer, people breeding hybrids and passing them off as 'pure' or people breeding hybrids and passing them off as just that, hybrids?

If people had no reason to hide it, they would likely advertise them as what they are and I think the chances of our 'pure' animals becoming 'tainted' would actually decrease.

[ravensgait]

Originally Posted by Australis

This thread is in the context of the hobby, and in this hobby as far as im concerned for example a Morelia spilota mcdowelli from NSW, bred to one from Far North Queensland is a hybrid in the hobby sense.

Guess you wouldnt see many true animals over your way would ya.



I sign my name when i feel like it, usually when replying to those i know, not on request.
You cant even manage to spell Australis correctly as it is, wouldnt want to push you any further.

LMAO well I don't know what to say to your first comment IE Context that funny.
Well heck I guess I must not have gotten my copy of Australis's version of Herp terms LMAO good one that who's the publisher so I can see about getting a copy. Sorry I really don't care how you try to cover your fopaw but that isn't even going to get off the gound much less fly. It isn't hard to look up what the terms mean you know..

True Animals humm, ah what kind of animals are you talking about? Unless you are referring to yourself I haven't a clue what your talking about there..

As for not using your name, well I can kind of understand that, I wouldn't want to sign my name to that either.. Randy

[ravensgait]

Quote""Very sensible opinion i think. Would become a case of better the devil you know."

I agree a sensible post.. Randy

[boa]

Yes I agree, a very good post Aspidites.

[aspidito]

Those people that know me, including Steve I (Morelia Pythons UK) hi Steve, know I have some beautiful pure Aussie animals that I am very proud of, my SA womas are the purest locale, I should know I caught the original animals of my line & have never introduced any other animal into this line.
Now I am really happy that we have so many native pythons available to us, locale specific & more beautiful morphs each year & I know from US & UK forums that guys overseas would love to get their hands on some of our animals & believe me I & many others if they were honest would give their right arm for some of the stunning designer snakes that you guys own & breed.
The only time I see Australia getting in strife is if an animal becomes extinct in the wild or disappears from certain areas, then we would loose the pure gene pool & have to rely on captive specimens, but what worries people here & me included is that people can & have cross bred & then sold on as pure & so the mixed line begins & goes on.
This debate should not create a divide between 2 different passions with a common love for the same thing, each should be able to appreciate the other with equal regard. Some of my friends own hi tech turbo 4 cylinders & others would have nothing else but big V8’s, I love & appreciate both & it is the same with our hobby, I only own & breed the best looking & purest locale (to the best of my knowledge) animals that I could get hold of but if you ask me would I like to own a pair of stunning looking designer peach coloured Jag morphs that are available in the US or Europe, absolutely yes without a doubt, who could ever dispute what the offspring are, nothing else but gorgeous individuals & as long as that is what they are sold as is fine.
Like it or not we will follow the trends of the US & Europe in the way of designer snakes, what we need to consider is how we are going to cope or manage with this evolution, one way that comes to my mind is a register of certain breeders that are strictly licensed to keep & breed only certain species therefore maintaining the purity of that particular animal ie; Aspidites ramsayi Uluru locale only & maybe another Morelia spilota s for instance, breeders could apply, be checked & be certified, an idea only but we should think about it as it will happen its only a matter of time.
Cheers to all, Paul.

[Australis]

Originally Posted by ravensgait

LMAO well I don't know what to say to your first comment IE Context that funny.

What context do you think this thread is in then, this is a hobby site isnt it?

Originally Posted by ravensgait

Well heck I guess I must not have gotten my copy of Australis's version of Herp terms LMAO good one that who's the publisher so I can see about getting a copy. Sorry I really don't care how you try to cover your fopaw but that isn't even going to get off the gound much less fly. It isn't hard to look up what the terms mean you know..

I know how the term is defined, here is one from a Australian Dictionary..
"hybrid: (offspring) having parents of different races, breeds, varieties, etc. "

For me, the mcdowelli that ive seen from the southern limits of their range (NSW) are significantly different to the mcdowelli ive seen further north into QLD.. enough for me to consider their offspring hybrids to some degree in my eyes, and im not the only one.
You really have no experience at all in this area, so i wouldnt expect you to understand it..
Laugh all you like, but at the end of the day, not too many people are going to listen to someone with out a shred of field experience, bang on about localities, just stick with those carpet pythons (term used loosely) in boxes in your basement half way across the world.

Originally Posted by ravensgait

True Animals humm, ah what kind of animals are you talking about? Unless you are referring to yourself I haven't a clue what your talking about there..

Wow, your very witty, no really, top stuff.

Originally Posted by ravensgait

As for not using your name, well I can kind of understand that, I wouldn't want to sign my name to that either.. Randy

Ah, its all good ravingit, ill make this my last response to you... time to get out of the gutter for me, you beat me with experience at this level.

[junglepython2]

Originally Posted by ravensgait

JP can you show me where I ever said you were Jealous and had taken shots at Americans ? I have no idea why you felt the need to throw that out.

It was in reference to this comment, I never said you directly questioned me, but just making sure I wasn't one of the "some".

Originally Posted by ravensgait

As for being jealous I don't know if you are or not, was just commenting on how some liked to take shots at American and European herpers.

Originally Posted by ravensgait

I mean it's not like you can tell the Sub species apart even by DNA testing.

I would love to see the reference to the work you are referring to? (I am being serious if you do have it available). Even if they haven't found any genetic markers yet, it doesnt mean they do not exist. I can't believe that a diamond python is genetically indistinct from say a bredli.

[boa]

Bredli are a distinct species, Randy was referring to Coastals, Jungles, Diamonds etc.

[junglepython2]

That depends what classification system you use Boa, many use M. spilota bredli and not M. bredli. Meaning they are not a distinct species. You can substitute the bredli for a darwin or jungle in my original comment if you like, I still do not believe they are genetically indistinct.

[cockney red]

Iwas under the impression that there are slight differences, as there is even between Diamonds & Intergrades.

Originally Posted by junglepython2

That depends what classification system you use Boa, many use M. spilota bredli and not M. bredli. Meaning they are not a distinct species. You can substitute the bredli for a darwin or jungle in my original comment if you like, I still do not believe they are genetically indistinct.

[oddball]

I personally would prefer a hybrid snake with a wonderful temperament to an angry and nasty pure blood.

My spotted is (as far as I know) a pure spotted and not mixed with a stimmie or a childrens, but it wouldn't bother me in the least if he was, because he is such a lovely little guy. But then again I don't care that he isn't a beautiful morph either. I wouldn't trade him for the fanciest bred snake in the world.

Of course I can appreciate unusually bred snakes, I think some morphs are the most stunning snakes I've ever seen, but I'm not interested in making any money off snakes, I keep them for the love of an amazing animal, and as a companion. So it doesn't matter so much to me.

So I voted "i'd keep him as a pet, but wouldn't breed him"

As for the debate, I have no problems personally with hybrids, and I already said I would keep one if it turned out to have a sweet personality. I do have a problem with deliberatley breeding a hybridised python, and then selling it as a pure bred one, because apart from being dishonest, it gives a bad name to the hybrid snakes, a stigma if you will and that would also carry on to the more unusual pure bred morphs as less and less people believe that they can be selectively bred as opposed to hybrid- bred.
That and I've read a few comments telling one owner of a hybrid telling him to 'put it in the freezer'. And although I hope it was a joke, I'm still not sure. And killing an animal for its breeding is just plain wrong to me.

I agree with the people who have said that there isn't much that could be done to stop it hybridising, but that a higher level of tolerance for hybrids will mean more people selling the snakes will be truthful about it. So if you don't like the idea of hybrids, rather than flame and berate people for breeding them, just don't buy them.