Venomous Exotics in Australia

[toxinologist]

Hi folks,

I've just spent the last couple of days at a meeting of professional zookeepers, medical toxinologists and venom suppliers to discuss some of the issues regarding the keeping of venomous exotic snakes, particularly the current position regarding antivenoms for exotic snakebites and the consequences of exotic snakebites.

There are two very important bits of information to convey to the broader herp community:

1. There are serious issues regarding antivenom availability for the treatment of exotic snakebites - basically zoos and venom suppliers have sufficient to treat 1 or 2 bites from the species in their collections, but when it comes to the private keeping fraternity, nobody has any real idea of how many venomous exotics are in the community, or what species, and this means that we have no idea what antivenoms need to be available in case a private keeper gets tagged.

2. Should a private keeper get tagged, the medical profession are not in the least interested in the legality or otherwise of your snakes. They are concerned with providing you with the most appropriate treatment and the that means the most appropriate antivenoms. Some species have venom that varies considerably depending on where it comes from, and some antivenoms do not work for specimens of the same species that come from different geographical locations. The medical view is that if you come in to a hospital with an exotic bite your confidentiality will be respected and you will not be handed over for prosecution.

My question to everyone and especially to anyone concerned about the risk of exotic snakebite in Australia is:

Does anyone here think that keepers would be willing to anonymously reveal the species you are keeping and whether or not you are breeding them/transferring them to others? - no names, no other details except a species name, the number held and yes or no to the breeding/transfer question.

I know that everyone involved in keeping exotics is concerned about legal issues - this has absolutely nothing to do with that - this question is simply about enabling Doctors to be prepared to treat bites and to have the right antivenoms available.

Exotic snakebites can produce horrific injuries and we do not want anyone to end up dead because they were afraid that if they wnet to hospital they would be arrested and/or their animals seized.

Maybe Slaty can do set up a thread that anonymous users can post their comments on in order to answer this without using user names?

Cheers


David

[sxereturn]

Was this the one held at ARP? If so, did you see the photos from Venom Supplies of them milking the Rhino's and Gaboons? I was the good looking guy in the background.

[Simon_Archibald]

David,
Firstly, the anonymous thread wouldn't be totally anonymous because IP addresses for each computer can be traced (correct me if I'm wrong).

Secondly, personally my only concern regarding venomous exotics' snake bites is innocent people such as children of the people committing the crime by keeping these animals. It has nothing to do with the general community as far as I'm concerned, and will just raise the amount of money hospitals and the like have to spend on products which will be rarely used.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is keeping exotics in Australia are aware it's illegal. Further to that, any of those people who are keeping venomous species would have to have had some experience with the animals. It is their responsibility to make sure no innocent / unaware person is bitten. Other than that, if they get bitten themselves, that is the consequence of their choices and actions.

Simon Archibald

[toxinologist]

Yeah mate - awesome pics - and PM has a mindblowing setup, perhaps just marginally beaten out by the ARP collection and setup - that place is a credit to JW and all the staff.

Cheers

Dave

[instar]

LOl Simon, did you need all those words just to say
"if they get bitten, tough!"

[Simon_Archibald]

Instar - you da man

Simon Archibald

[instar]

You'd make a great politician Simon :wink:

[sxereturn]

A few relevant points from me...

I was anti-exotics until I saw some with my own eyes. I am a converted man...

Keeping any reptiles used to be illegal - they couldn't beat it, so they regulated it. They need to do the same with exotics. Simon - the law is only the law if you get caught. Ever smoked a J? Ever gone above the speed limit? Both potentially lethal... Once you have seen a 5 foot long Rhino Viper, or a 10 foot long Forest Cobra, you'll understand. This is a problem the government could have control over if they went about it the right way. The reptiles are already here, and if it is regulated, 90% of the problems they say will come with exotics will be stamped out.

This may be a little all over the shop, I just typed my thoughts (only the G rated ones...)

[Simon_Archibald]

Originally Posted by sxereturn

Simon - the law is only the law if you get caught.

...in your eyes, does this apply to rape, murder, child molestation??? Life is not simply about breaking the law when it suits you and then criticising other people who carry out more "severe" crimes. You can't just say it's only a bad thing if you get caught, and if you can do it withouth getting caught go ahead.

Originally Posted by sxereturn

Ever smoked a J?

...No

Originally Posted by sxereturn

Ever gone above the speed limit?

Actually a close friend of mine was killed in a car accident after being hit by a speeding driver. For this reason I'm one of those "sissy's" who actually bothers to abide by the law for safety's sake.

Originally Posted by sxereturn

The reptiles are already here, and if it is regulated, 90% of the problems they say will come with exotics will be stamped out.

I would definately support a licensing system for exotics and would definately keep them if it was legal. But, just because you think the government is doing a bad job by not letting people keep them doesn't make it OK.

Simon Archibald

[toxinologist]

Not quite that simple Simon - for starters most of the long time native reptile keepers were once 'illegal' keepers as well, but nobody would refuse any of them medical care, just as nobody refuses it to any other victim of their actions - be they drug addicts who OD, kids who fall off the roof thinking they are superman, or drunk drivers who slam into telephone poles on the way home.

The reality is that there are keepers with venomous exotics, and not all of them know what they are dealing with. Two examples we heard from the Head of a major Sydney hospital Emergency Department:

1. Guy turns up with snakebite - says he has a licence and was bitten by his pet desert death adder - when the rather unusual symptoms begin developing he is questioned again and admits that he was bitten by a snake a bought from a dealer, and that all he knows is that is is from Africa and venomous ...

... and the culprit - a South African puff adder (Bitis arietans)

2. Fella down the south coast is sold a baby 'carpet snake' for $100 in a pub - takes snake home and keeps for about 12 months in a glass tank on the coffee table in the lounge room. Lets his kids play with snake, lets their friends play with the snake - anytime they like. Eventually becomes concerned that the snake is becoming increasingly aggressive and finally starts doubting the 'carpet snake' ID ... takes snake to Taronga Zoo and nearly gives the keepers a heart attack ...

... and the culprit - a Russell's viper (Daboia russelli) of UNKNOWN origin and therefore UNKNOWN antivenom requirement (depending on the locality you need a different AV)

In this second case the buyer was not a herper - he had a kid interested in reptiles and thought the cute little snake would be a great surprise ... he sure got that right ...

Think is that it is an absolute miracle nobody was nailed by the Daboia and killed. If you have ever worked with these - and I have - you would know just how nasty and dangerous they can really be - and we're talking bites that cause hideous local tissue destruction and depending on the locality - renal failure, pituitary gland haemorrhages and a whole host of other potentially fatal outcomes ...

There is NO ANTIVENOM for this species in Australia.

As I said at the start of the post, this is not about finger pointing - this is about saving lives if and when the time comes without making judgements. As for IP addresses the concensus of the group was that this is a non-issue - believe it or not the authorities actually have better things to do than troll the various forums for potential suspects.

Cheers


Dave

[peterescue]

And Simon, Making condoms unavailable will stop teenagers having sex too.
Peter

[Fuscus]

Originally Posted by Simon_Archibald

David,
Firstly, the anonymous thread wouldn't be totally anonymous because IP addresses for each computer can be traced (correct me if I'm wrong).

Almost correct. Most people have floating addresses, the trace goes back to your ISP and they tell the cops who was using that address at the time of post.

But there are services can hide the origin of a mail. If you are really worried use hotmail from an internet cafe.

And yes, a list of hots kept in Australia would be a good idea, but if someone was irresponsible enough to import/keep a naughty hot then they proberly wouldn't be responsible to add it to the list.

[Simon_Archibald]

Dave,
I can understand the viewpoint of all doctors, nurses and other medical staff on the issue. They want to make sure they can cater to a need if it arises. This is fair enough and totally what would be expected of people who train for years to look out for human well-being. That's very commendable.

What I have a problem with is this...A teacher I work with at a High School here in Newcastle recently had a fall while on class in a food-tech room. She fell to the floor while holding a knife and ended up slicing her hand right open. The cut was very deep and severed a nerve. She was rushed to the public hospital with blood literally spurting out, to the point her hair was dripping with blood and her face was totally red. This lady was not attended to for 4 1/2 hours after arriving at the hospital because the staff were too busy.

Now, if that was someone I knew and the staff were busy monitoring and administering anti-venom to a keeper of exotic venomous snakes, I'd be pretty damn annoyed. Why should someone who abides by the law and was involved in an honest accident have to wait while a knowing criminal is treated?

Simon Archibald

[Simon_Archibald]

Originally Posted by peterescue

And Simon, Making condoms unavailable will stop teenagers having sex too.
Peter

Upbeat Pete, if you believe that (and the scary thing is I think you might) then we're all in trouble.

Simon Archibald

[instar]

For christ sake Simon, life threatening emergencies come before some silly cow with a cut hand. Nothing else matters. what if it was YOU needing lifesaving treatment?, and they were sooking a hand cut ????
death makes no distinction between crims and goody two shoes.