'Black and Gold' Jungles......??

[Den]

Hey guy's,

I'm interested in what people class as a Black and Gold Jungle? For years i've seen cream coloured Athertons being passed off as B&G's. Are such animals what general herpers regard as Black and Golds these days? The general consensus used to be that Palmerstons were the only true Black and Gold Jungles. Everything on the fringes of the plateau down to the tablelands (and others localities) was classed as either Black and Yellow (given their colour) or Athertons, Tullys etc? (I'm no 'Jungle' locale expert by any means so forgive my loose example of Palmerstons Atherton and Tully area.....where's Nick Stock when you need him?)

Anyways, pics and opinions thanks guys.

Den

[The Devil]

Black and gold's are as the name implies, black and gold. Keep in mind that some lines take up to say 18 months to show full colour.

The attached pic is a B&G.....................

[Jonno from ERD]

Hey mate, I've always thought the exact same thing. People trying to offload animals as "Black and Golds" when they are really black and brown or black and tan. It doesn't matter for people in the know, but new keepers might get sucked into paying way too much for a mediocre snake.

[-aspidites-]

I think the term now is used fairly loosely and from what I've seen is basically synonymous with "doesn't look like a coastal halfbreed" and "isn't beige."

Personally, I'll call them whatever their true colours (or will be) are and charge according to aesthetics, be they a true "black and gold" or a nice black and yellow, or something else entirely.

[mysnakesau]

Have a look at the jungles on Southern Cross Reptiles' site. Thats what you call Black & Gold, or do a search of pics here.

[Jungle_Freak]

Gold coloured jungles are like gold ring colour ,
then there yellow colours,
canary yellow like the devils jungles or palmerston jungles are usually lemon yellow ,
thats how i see them

[Den]

Originally Posted by The Devil

Black and gold's are as the name implies, black and gold. Keep in mind that some lines take up to say 18 months to show full colour.

The attached pic is a B&G.....................

I was thinking i'd get that reply. Black and Gold is Black and Gold. The trouble seems to be alot of people are colour blind or rather colour enhanced! The snake will always sell itself and as you say, they take atlest 6mths to show what their potential colours will be which makes it easy for people to pass freshly hatched Athertons off as whatever colour they like! Pics of the parents is the only way to be sure i guess but even then throw backs to duller ancestors can be common.

Hot snake by the way! You'd be almost sick of that comment by now..........

Thanks
Den

[Den]

Originally Posted by Jungle_Freak

Gold coloured jungles are like golden ring colours ,
then there yellow colours, canary like the devils jungles or palmerston jungles are usually lemon yellow ,

Yeah, it may be what the person persieves the colour to be. I'd call Devil's Black and Yellow, Dirty, deep coloured Palmerstons is my perception of Black and Gold.

Personal prefference but clean, selectively bred black and yellows beat all others hands down. Others may preffer pure Palmerstons due to their specific locality but the eventual dirtyness in the gold lets them down.

[viridis]

Just my opinion den

Jungle Carpet Pythons – Morelia spilota cheynei.

The jungle carpet is with out doubt, one of the most desirable species of carpet available to be kept by amateur hobbyists in Australia. With their striking colours and immensely variable patterns, the title, as the ultimate carpet python will remain theirs for a long time yet.

Here in Australia, we are lucky enough to have access to various locales of this popular python. The most well known and readily available is the Palmerston locale. Most of these specimens are of black and gold colouration. These animals are the foundations to most of the well-known and well-respected bloodlines of Jungles here in Australia. The Palmerston nametag originates back to animals, which in the early 1980’s, were collected from the surrounding areas of the now famous Palmerston Highway. This stretch of road starts from Innisfail, travelling through wet tropical rainforest and cleared farmlands up through Milla Milla, and continues further west towards Ravenshoe. There are various other locales that come under the Palmerston genre, including (but not limited to) South Johnstone, Milla Milla, Mena Creek, East Palmerston and Nerada Tea. These animals all vary in minor ways but most still share the general characteristics of Palmerston’s; solid black and deep gold colouration, rather aggressive temperaments, increased melanin tipping and a smaller stockier size.

Most well coloured animals being sold under the Palmerston name can be traced back to a few well-established bloodlines such as the Krauss, Aland and Montgomery lines.

Although the Cheynei sub species of carpets have a relatively small distribution, there is an intense variation in both colouration and patterns within animals from differing localities. I will give a brief, whilst comprehensive description of a few of the various wild occurring morphs.

Atherton Tablelands:
Animals from this area often attract a negative feeling amongst a lot of keepers. These animals are often regarded as being not a “true Jungle”, as there are a lot of somewhat drab or dull specimens from this area. I feel that these animals that consist of more plain colours including brown, bone, tan, cream and mustard are what most people refer to when speaking of this area form. Although not as common as some other localities, you still do find stunning specimens with velvet black and vibrant yellows and gold’s. Found on the outskirts of the actual town Atherton, these animals tend to inhabit the dense semi tropical rainforest and also some areas of Sclerophyll forest. The size of animals from the Atherton area is the main differing factor, with animals exceeding 2 meters commonly. We have measured some specimens that have exceeded 3 meters in total length, and approx 6 kg in weight.

Over all, pythons from this locale are often an enjoyable locale to keep in captivity due to their calm disposition.

Tully – Mission Beach:
This is a well-coloured locale of Cheynei that is rapidly becoming more popular with the amateur herp. Mission beach animals are very similar to specimens from the Palmerston area, though animals found from Cowley Beach to South Mission tend to show a bright, lemon yellow colouration rather then shades of gold’s. Well-banded specimens seem to be a lot more common within these locales then any other area where Jungles inhabit. Specimens found inland, from the township of Tully up to the Koombooloomba Dam area can vary a lot in size, colouration and pattern. These animals can show striped, banded and blotched patterns, and be anything from bright gold’s and jet blacks to dull tans and creams.

Mt Molloy, Julatten, Mossman, Daintree, Cape Tribulation:
These are quite possibly some of the most desired morph of Jungles in recent times due to the spectacular black and white colouration found on some standout animals, and the fact that they are relatively rare in captive collections. These animals are few and far between with most being grey rather then white and also often being of Tri – colouration, with shades of Orange, Grey and black. Standout animals as adults are rare, as most specimens often loose the crisp white, which fades to a dull grey when the animals reach adulthood.

This morph will become readily available as more keepers are now choosing to work with them in order to create more aesthetically pleasing Pythons. In the early days of herpetology, these animals were seldom kept in captivity due to their pugnacious attitudes and shy temperaments; Julatten animals in particular are extremely hard to get to voluntary feeding on rodents.

Cooktown - Cape York:
Animals found within the Bloomfield - Cooktown – Southern Cape York area, often cause some confusion as to what sub species of the Morelia spilota complex they come into. It is in my belief that specimens found in these areas should be classed under the Cheynei name tag as they tend to show more of the Tableland Jungle attributes. Good examples of these Jungles are truly outstanding looking animals. They show the typical Jungle black skull and cross bone head patterns and well-coloured animals can be of bright orange and white colouration with thick stripes and irregular blotches along the sides of the animals. This particular colour morph is mainly found around Cooktown and is one of my favourite colour forms of Carpets.

Cardwell, Bilyana - Ingham:
These are the most southern forms of Jungles. Some of these animals tend to show characteristics of Coastal Carpets (Morelia spilota mcdowelli) in both colour/ pattern and size. I believe that some of these animals are the result of a natural intergrade between Cheynei and Mcdowelli, which becomes more apparent further south between Paluma and Townsville. Animals from these locales often show strong striping, sometimes having up to 5-6 lateral and dorsal stripes. Colourations of these pythons are not as spectacular as the northern specimens, as they tend to show varying shades of dull mustard yellows and browns. Size is also a distinguishing factor that separates these animals from the smaller northern area forms, with individuals averaging 6-7 feet in size as adults.

Sexing:
The most definite way to determine the sex of Jungle’s is by cloacal probing. An experienced person easily does this method of sexing. Care should be taken as damage can be done to the animal (hatchlings in particular) if done incorrectly. Females probe to a depth of 3 - 6 subcaudals and males to a depth of 8 -13 subcaudals. Both sexes have spurs though male spurs are more pronounced and often visibly larger.
Housing:
In warmer climates a 25-watt blue globe can be used as the main source of heat for adult Jungles. Globes are left on all day, but it is recommended that they be turned off via a thermostat-controlled device, if temperatures in the room reach 30°C or above. Heating for juvenile and hatchling snakes can be obtained from heat cords, which are left on day and night but again turned off if temps reach 30°C.
Housing for adult snakes can vary, but a cheap and effective method can be made from melamine and should feature a hide box of some description. These can be above the cages, or simply achieved by using a dark plastic or wooden tub on the floor of the cage. Hinged or sliding glass doors can be used whilst pegboard backs offer good ventilation. Suitable dimensions are 600 mm x 600mm x 900mm, with provision of two perches the same diameter as the snake. These cages can be made to form banks of 12 cages, which are 2400mm long, sit neat and are great for optimising space. Appropriate yearling cages can be made from the same materials but are smaller sizes, 600mm x 300 mm x 300 mm. Juveniles and hatchlings are best kept in small plastic containers around 200mm x 150 mm x 150mm. A perch is a necessity for young animals; this can be in the form of plastic coat hangers, dowel or small smooth branches. A mistake that inexperienced keepers often make, is buying a small Jungle and housing it in an excessive sized enclosure. This will stress the snake due to insecurity and the animal will not settle down in captivity, and the risk of an animal escaping is also dramatically increased.
Feeding:
Adult jungles will accept a wide range of prey including mice, rats, appropriate sized chickens, pigeons and quail. The diets of wild animals consist of approximately 75% birds, 20% small mammals and 5% frogs and reptiles. Juveniles in a natural environment start of feeding on small skinks and frogs. Some finicky animals will only eat mice which is a hassle, as rats put condition on young snakes a lot faster in captivity. In captivity adult snakes should ideally only be fed 2 - 3 medium rats a month. Hatchling Carpets will usually voluntarily feed on small fuzzy mice after they have shed. The remaining snakes that didn’t feed initially usually will within a month.
All hatchling Morelia species should have a perch in their cages. This will help shy snakes to eat, as like most pythons, they like to be above the food item to strike. As a last resort for difficult feeding hatchlings, small fuzzy mice can be scented with garden skinks by placing them together in a small tub and leaving them to scent for a few hours.
Breeding
Jungle carpets like all of the Morelia spilota sub species are easily and regularly bred in captivity. I don’t feed any mature animals after the late April / early May. After all food items are digested and passed I begin to cool them for breeding. This can be done by simply offering no heat at night and reducing the ambient temperature in the cage. After adequate cooling time males are placed in the female’s cages in trios, two females to one male. The heat remains off all night with temperatures sometimes getting down to 10 deg c. Heating at approx 28 degs is provided for around four hours each day at about 8 am until 12 noon. Once the females have ovulated and have had a pre lay slough, the males are taken out and put back into separate cages. Eggs are usually laid around 24 - 30 days after the pre lay slough. Eggs can be laid from September to October and are incubated at 31 deg c starting to hatch after 50 -55 days of artificial incubation. After the first snake has pipped the egg, I usually cut a small ‘V’ out of the remaining eggs to reduce the risk of a weaker animal becoming trapped in the egg and subsequently drowning. Once completely out of the egg, the neonates are transferred to a small plastic tubs, with damp paper towel as substrate, until the snake has shed. This will usually take around 7 - 10 days, although it can take up to one month. Once hatchlings have sloughed, the damp substrate is replaced by normal paper towel and hatchlings are then offered a food item.

Summery:

All of the various locales of Jungles are well suited to captivity. They are easy to breed and are an enjoyable species to keep. They require minimal attention and are relatively hardy if common sense and basic reptile keeping methods are followed.

[Den]

About time Nicky.....

I can hear people cutting and paisting as i type.

Den

[viridis]

give me a few days and i will get pics of all of the above locales ( wild snake)

[Miss B]

I don't understand why snakes that are black and bright yellow are labelled "Black and Gold".

[Den]

I look forward to the pics mate!

Have you seen any wild animals that stack up to the brightness of the Devils, Rogers on his website or your first Supers?

Excuse my ignorance, I'm best described as a "captive herper" (Mr Lucas pers. comm.)

[Dabool]

Yeah what virdis said.

[GrumpyTheSnake]

well.. I don't care what you call them... but here are my babies... gorgeous hey!!!!

Thanks Den

The first is my little man, Zeus, (sweetheart), the second is my little girl, Isis, ( little cow!)