Blueys- Heat/UV

[GSXR_Boy]

Tristis and Jason L, can you guys elaborate a little on your heating methods (temps, hours etc) feeding etc and what you guys dust with etc?
Cheers!

[peterjohnson64]

Originally Posted by CGSwans

Ok, this is a hypothetical as I'm nowhere near having my dream house within the next few years, but for the sake of my curiosity I will ask.

My *dream* house is on acres (meaning space is not a concern) and is built according to passive solar design principles. Specifically, I want an isolated solar gain house plan with a large greenhouse along the north (sun-facing) face of the house. This would also allow me to have a warm temperate or even sub-tropical garden despite the likelihood that I will be living close to Canberra.

However for reasons of durability, weight and cost I want to use acrylic plexiglass rather than actual glass. Acrylic lets a moderate amount of UVB through - not nearly as much as direct sunlight, but still more than any UVB light fitting could produce.

On that basis, couldn't I put lizard cages in the greenhouse, and as long as I have open/wire tops facing the north, I wouldn't need to provide artificial UVB?

No. One day you will cook them!!! Well, I will qualify that a little. If you are going to leave animals in a greenhouse, shed, your own bedroom or whatever remember that you, at times, will not be in a position to cool them. Take 1 January 2006 as an example. Lots of people came on here to tell sad stories of haw their animals (that were kept in thier house) died becuase someone forgot to cool them. The house got to 40 degrees plus and accordingly there was no place for any animals to escape the 40 degree temperatures. I believe CAnberra got above 40 degrees on that day as well.

Now some people say to me that they will have air conditioning or whatever but again I say to you. How can you guarantee that the air conditioning will work if you are away at work for the day. You can talk about thermostats but I have a very recent example of a thermostat failing and killing a very valuable pair of snakes.

If youa re going to design a herp room you need to make it as insulated as possible and mainly from heat. You can not do this by having large areas of north facing exposed glass. Run your tests on your room on a 40 degree day to see how hot it gets. If it gets much above 30 then you are probably in a bit of trouble. And that is without a heat load from your enclosures.

Personally, I have set up a herp room that gets to about 30 degrees on the hottest of summer days. And that includes having the lights and heating on in the enclosures. It gets down to about 24 over night. The temps do not vary much regardless of day time highs.

I use mercury vapours for heating so they are not on thermostats. When the room is at 30 degrees the enclosures with the mercury vapours have gradtients from 40 degrees down to about 32 degrees. But because they have lizards in them the lizards still stay at the hot end!!!!

As this is a thread on blue tongues then we would probably be better off starting a new thread to discuss herp room design.

[CGSwans]

Perhaps a new thread is a good idea, but I will just note that passive solar design involves both heating and cooling features. An obvious part of the plan would be being able to block out the sunlight - such as roll-down shade screens.

Mods - please feel free to move my post and Peter's reply to a new thread. Perhaps call it 'passive solar herp room'?

[Sdaji]

Originally Posted by Rocky

How do bone deformities in beardies occur then?

I've seen plenty of dragons with MBD and deformities which have had full access to broad spectrum UV. I'm not aware of any proper study (amateur or professional) which has shown that UV is of benefit to reptiles. I know of controlled experiments (ie, using test animals with control animals for reference) using frogs and pythons which were done by amateurs which failed to show any benefit from UV - although the samples were small and the results are far some universally relevant, for reasons which would take a page or two of text to describe). There is a lot of hearsay and vague anecdotes, but that's about it. I've bred multiple generations of some reptiles which many claim require UV (such as sun-loving skinks, monitors and geckoes) without them seeing any UV at all, and they've been perfectly healthy. The only animals I've ever had with MBD had about 12 hours of UV exposure every day, but they were not given calcium or vitamin supplements (this was in my early days, back when sourcing information about supplements etc was very difficult, and I was following what was available to me at the time). I haven't kept dragons for years now, but I'm almost tempted to get back into them again for a few years in order to test their requirement for UV. I've raised Blue-tongued Lizards from birth with no UV and they've thrived. Proper diet and temperatures are very important for them; with a poor diet you'll have a lot of trouble no matter what else you do.

[Tristis]

i dont dust with anything, just give them a choice of usable temps.

[peterjohnson64]

Originally Posted by CGSwans

Perhaps a new thread is a good idea, but I will just note that passive solar design involves both heating and cooling features. An obvious part of the plan would be being able to block out the sunlight - such as roll-down shade screens.

Mods - please feel free to move my post and Peter's reply to a new thread. Perhaps call it 'passive solar herp room'?

I fully accept what you are saying but again someone has to roll down the sun shades. Every person that lost animals on 1 Jan 2006 also had foolproof cooling systems in place that merely needed a person to do one thing. That may have been to turn on the air conditioning, open the garage door to let the heat out, open a window, pull down a blind. Whatever. Problem was, in a small number of cases on that day this wasn't done and resulted in animals dieing (usually the person was away and relied on a parent or relative to perform this action). So, if you are going to leave the blinds down ALL summer then that is fine. Otherwise, one day when you are out and about you will realise that you forgot to do something. Unfortunately, that will be too late. You MUST design a room that does not get hotter than 30 odd degrees without intervention. It is easily enough done.

[CGSwans]

Yes, I would think that keeping them down all summer would probably be what I'd do. I'd be aiming for an ambient temperature in the mid 20s. The area I want to live has an average maximum temperature in the summer months of 27-28.

[Bourbs]

there may be no official study results to prove that reptiles benefit from UV, but is there any to prove that they DON'T? Taking that into account, isn't it better to use it just to be safe?

[ozianimals]

I have never had any probs with my bluey and he has never seen any UV. He has been down to the herp vet who gave him a clean bill of health. There is more evidence that it is not essential for them to get UV just on this thread than there is to say they need it on the web.

[mysnakesau]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

I've seen plenty of dragons with MBD and deformities which have had full access to broad spectrum UV. I'm not aware of any proper study (amateur or professional) which has shown that UV is of benefit to reptiles. I know of controlled experiments (ie, using test animals with control animals for reference) using frogs and pythons which were done by amateurs which failed to show any benefit from UV - although the samples were small and the results are far some universally relevant, for reasons which would take a page or two of text to describe). There is a lot of hearsay and vague anecdotes, but that's about it. I've bred multiple generations of some reptiles which many claim require UV (such as sun-loving skinks, monitors and geckoes) without them seeing any UV at all, and they've been perfectly healthy. The only animals I've ever had with MBD had about 12 hours of UV exposure every day, but they were not given calcium or vitamin supplements (this was in my early days, back when sourcing information about supplements etc was very difficult, and I was following what was available to me at the time). I haven't kept dragons for years now, but I'm almost tempted to get back into them again for a few years in order to test their requirement for UV. I've raised Blue-tongued Lizards from birth with no UV and they've thrived. Proper diet and temperatures are very important for them; with a poor diet you'll have a lot of trouble no matter what else you do.

I agree with this post. Talking to customers at work also, it seems many ppl know UV is good for their lizards but don't understand why. Sunlight provides Vitamin D3 which is needed to absorb calcium. But the calcium doesn't come from the sun. A healthy and balanced diet is just as important as the UV. Whether the lizards are fed on grubs or fruit and veges, their food should be dusted with calcium and/or vitamin supplement to give them that extra help along. Then the sun plays its role by taking in the calcium and sending it to where its needed.

Even if UV isn't needed, your pet would appreciate the chance to play in the sun now and then. Probably would help them keep their colours nice and strong. Works for goldfish. Notice goldfish in fish tanks often lose their colours or black goldfish end up going bronze? Panda orandas end up all white and calicos colours dull, also. Yet put them in a pond outside and they retain their colours with full brilliance - well my fish have anyway. Same would most certainly apply to our herps

[JasonL]

Originally Posted by mysnakesau

Even if UV isn't needed, your pet would appreciate the chance to play in the sun now and then. Probably would help them keep their colours nice and strong. Works for goldfish. Notice goldfish in fish tanks often lose their colours or black goldfish end up going bronze? Panda orandas end up all white and calicos colours dull, also. Yet put them in a pond outside and they retain their colours with full brilliance - well my fish have anyway. Same would most certainly apply to our herps

Lots of things change colour in the sun, doesn't mean it's any healthier though, just look at Poms

[mysnakesau]

Jason. No, I guess not but a little bit is good for anyone.

[GSXR_Boy]

Originally Posted by mysnakesau

Jason. No, I guess not but a little bit is good for anyone.

I'm quite happy with avoiding the sun and having ricketts!!

[serenaphoenix]

Originally Posted by Tristis

MBD is from not having the right range of usable temps.
my beardys and turtles do fine with out it.

That, in my personal opinion is crap.

You don't get bone disease from heating... it's the same in humans - if you don't get enough calcium (or don't absorb calcium properly) then you get osteoporosis... bone disease.

If a reptile (specifically your bluey) doesn't get enough CALCIUM (or doesn't absorb the calcium properly) it will get MBD...

You don't NEED a UV tube if you can take them out in the sunlight, and provide plenty of supplements... but heat does NOT cause MBD...

[JasonL]

Originally Posted by GSXR_Boy

I'm quite happy with avoiding the sun and having ricketts!!

just sprinkle some reptical over your icecream every night and you will be fine. Stay white and alive! sure it may slowly weaken our bodies over many generations untill we are fully nocturnal with gaint eyes, but beats dieing at 40!