Boydii dominance

[-aspidites-]

I've just gotten a couple of very young boydii, approximately two months old.

At the moment, they're being housed together, but I have noticed some dominating behaviour.

A few times today, one of them has chased the other with its dewlap puffed out and its mouth gaping. At one point it jumped on top of the other one and shortly after this, the aggressor proceeded to bob its head in a very jerky manner, with its mouth still gaping and dewlap still puffed out.

Has anyone with boydii seen this behaviour in young dragons?

Is it just because they're in a new environment and they have a social structure which requires one to assert dominance?

If left together (at this point I believe I will have to separate them though), is this a common occurrence with boydii that will soon sort itself out?

Would it be possible that I have two males and this is the cause of the behaviour, even though they're VERY far from being sexually mature/active?

I might also add that these two were previously housed with a few others and none of this behaviour was noted by the breeder.

I'm very new to lizards, having only kept a couple for short periods in the past and never have I kept agamids for extended periods, so this is all a big learning experience for me.

Any advice would be appreciated

[boa]

My suggestion would be get a dozen or more vertical branches (following on from your other thread) and plenty of foliage as cover. Dragons of all types are very territorial and this can be lessened by providing places for both to be out of sight of the other. I'm not saying it is the answer but it could ease the problem considerably.

[-aspidites-]

Thanks boa

I've decided to separate them for now by way of a divider down the middle of the enclosure, as suggested by the breeder.

If or when I try to reintroduce them, I'll make sure to have even more foliage and branches. Although there was a bit before, they both seemed to like the same corner of the enclosure.

The one which appeared to be getting dominated did do a damned good job of hiding in what foliage there was, last night, though. It took me about 10 minutes to find him, he was so well hidden! I was starting to think he'd somehow got out of the enclosure.

[Southside Morelia]

Hey aspidites,
I have not much experience with Boyds (12 months),I have 2 and they don't display this behaviour and never have.
My 2 are the same age and through my previous experience with Angle Heads (closest specie to Boydii) I suspect I have a M& F pair. Reason....one has a bigger crest, head and is slightly different colouration and is slightly he is more dominant although not aggressive to his house mate.
In my research, although very limited info is available, you can only sex Boyds 100% by x-ray... unless you already have a proven breeding pair, atleast this is what I have been told.
Back to your dilema, I reckon you have 1 of 2 things here...either you have 2 males or you have a male that is a pain in the @rse, a bully, just like some humans..LOL
I am very interested in the ongoing saga you have, so please post or PM me with your experience, as I am pretty passionate about my Boyd's and hope to be one of the few who do end up knowing about their behaviour in captivity, so we can all learn about this unreal little lizard.
Cheers
Scott.

[-aspidites-]

Thanks scm1, I much appreciate your input :-)

I've heard the same about sexing them. On the bright side, I might be able to convince my girlfriend's father to give me a freebie x-ray

Do you think two males would be aggressive even at the young age of two months though? I wouldn't have expected gender based aggression/dominance until maybe twelve months of age.

My plan is now to keep them separated for a while and then try to reintroduce them when they're a little bigger, although I have no idea if that will prove successful or not at this point. I'll try to remember to update this thread when the time comes :-)

I would also be very interested in hearing about any and all of your experience with boydii. They're great little dragons, but there's basically no information on them, which is disappointing. I guess the majority of boydii keepers are all still learning about them at this point, given the lack of freely available information, so it'd be nice if all of us boydii keepers could become a bit more vocal about our experiences with them, so as to help other future keepers!

[Southside Morelia]

Mate, my sentiments exactly....
Who knows about the male dominant thing at that age....no one has documented it. It could be a domination thing, but again there's not any documented studies on them that I can find anyway!
I watch my guys every day and note their behaviour patterns when they differ from the norm.
I went through a phase when they wouldn't eat and had to hand feed them, literally force feed them. I still do hand feed them now, cause it's cool to interact with them. But being as expensive as they are, I had to really nurture them...the things we do hey!
Keep in touch, as i'd like to case study your 2...do you have any pics of the 2, just to see if there is any physical difference?
Cheers mate...
Regards
Scott.

[-aspidites-]

I don't have any decent pics of them, I'm afraid. They're very tiny, so I really don't want to handle them more than necessary while they're so frail.

I did get these two pics of them, however. Terrible quality, I know, but it's the best I've managed to get so far, through the glass.

First photo is the one who's unofficially named "Chunky" at this point. The second one is unofficially named "Skinny." As you might expect, Chunky is the aggressor. He's eaten about six crickets (as well as some woodies, fed by the breeder) since yesterday, whereas I've only seen Skinny eat one, although Skinny apparently did consume some woodies also, yesterday.

I don't know if I'm imagining it, or if it's just the angles I keep seeing them on, but Skinny appears to have a slightly more angular head than Chunky, who seems slightly boofier. Being so tiny it's hard to be certain though. Even still, I wouldn't expect any sexual dimorphism to be present at this young age, so even if it's not my imagination, I'm not sure it would mean anything in that respect.

Out of curiosity, how long did you have to force feed them for before they resumed voluntary feeding? How old were they when this happened? How big are they now and how much do you find they eat?

Thanks, Scott!

[salebrosus]

When ever i get worried about animals possibly missing feeds and becoming skinny i give them Hills Science Diet a/d formula which is high in protein etc. i use a syringe, stick it into the meat and suck a little bit up into the syringe, i then slowly squueze it in front of the dragons and they go feral acting like it is a worm etc. I also have baby boyds and this is how i have them set up, they seem happy and healthy enough and they have some funny little characteristics about them.

Simone.

[-aspidites-]

Thanks for posting, Simone and thank you for your advice regarding the "Hills Science Diet a/d formula"

I don't expect at this stage to have any problems with Skinny eating, as none has been noted by the breeder. Now that I've separated them, I expect Skinny will begin chowing down his/her fair share, but if he/she does not, I'll try and get my hands on some of the aforementioned

Nice setup you have there, also. May I ask what material you are using as a substrate? I currently have mine on none, as was recommended for spinipes in a care sheet and since that's what the breeder of mine does for hatchies/juvies. I understand some people use coir / peat, but I do not know what either of those look like, to be honest.

Thanks again!

[salebrosus]

Well i am giving the coir peat a go at the moment, it does help in holding the moisture and so far so good there doesn't seem to be any issues. I have found in the past that the stuff after a while can smell unpleasant and i have found that woodies burrow into it so i don't leave woodies to roam free in there. Also i have found in the past my spinipes got the stuff in their eyes, also no good. But so far they seem to be going ok. They get sprayed morning and night and offered food daily.

Simone.

[Southside Morelia]

Here's a few pics of my guys plus enclosure....
I will try and get a few for comparison!
I will also get some more of the enclosure as this one does not do it justice..but gives you an idea!
Cheers
Scott

[Southside Morelia]

!st pic is of suspected girl...2nd of suspected boy, note the difference.
I too use coir as a substrate.
You must have good drainage, I have a 50mm hole covered by a screen mesh to stop any coir from falling through.
On the base of the enclosure I have a layer of large pebbles, this is covered by flyscreen. On top of the screen I have a layer of small aquariom type pebbles, the small ones, then on top of this I have roughly about 100-150mm of coir. It must be the UN-FERTILIZED type so as not to feed any bacteria that will be present.
This then leads into the issue of smell mentioned by Simone, You must flush the substrate every week minimum, I do it bi-weekly, with a watering can or similar, this then flushes any crap that may accumulate in the substrate.
Again you must have good drainage system or it wont work!
I also have a automated misting system which sprays the enclosure 2 times a day, this plus the coir substrate helps keep up the humidity in the enclosure. There is also a waterfall for ashtetics as well as my guys love to bath in it, drink from it and crap in it.. clean it out regulary.
Oh forgot to mention, You will also need a heat lamp, not nesessarily a basking light, to keep the temps at 28degrees, not an issue in Summer, but in Winter they like the warm area.
If I think of anything else i'll post, i'm on holidays and had a couple of beers and a nice BBQ so forgive the rambling, but I love my Boyds more than any other herp I keep...
Cheers Scott.
PS. Don't let your woodies roam free, as Simone says, they burrow into the coir. Again note the bowl, it is painted with Fluon or Teflon on the sides so the woodies can't escape...also it is a Bonsai type bowl with the lip angled inwards, this (by experience) also keeps your feeders inside as they can't crawl up the sides...Don't feed crix unless you break off their back legs, asthey always escape andend up chirping madly when they grow, which inadvertantely ****** off everyone in your household!
Chow for now....sorry the beers speaking again!

[salebrosus]

Keep the beers coming Scott. I appreciate all of your input and am eagerly awaiting more pics.

Simone.

[Southside Morelia]

Originally Posted by johnbowemonie

Keep the beers coming Scott. I appreciate all of your input and am eagerly awaiting more pics.

Simone.

I know, sorry Simone... what are you doing up on a School night?
It's good we can converse and share our knowledge on these guys....I take in what all of our individual experiences, that's how we all learn!
Are you going to have a Shardy or something to keep the atmosphere going or what?
Scott...

[salebrosus]

Sorry Scott, i piked out. Too many bundys, i think i would be worse on the chardonnay though.

Will be removing the peat tonight though i think. I'm paranoid about the stuff at the moment.

Simone.