Elapids

[soulweaver]

i know the topic on venomoids has been risen a few times. Regardless of wheather you agree with it or not. (which i don't!!!) i was wondering if you removed venom from say two rrbs and then mated them, and kept doing the same to their offspring, could you eventually make a species that was no longer a danger too humans? i know its a gene that is passed on too their offspring, which proabably answer's the question as 'no you can't', but there is talk of doctors altering gene's in humans now to give you the sex of a baby you want. Could the same principle apply too elpaids creting a species that holds no venom?

i'm not sure if anyone knows how long a elpaid lives after taking away it's venom. Does it shorten its lifespan? but if you could remove the venom before its even born would it give you a snake that lives longer, or the same as its natural occuring brothers and sisters who still have venom?

thanks, this is just something we ahve been debating and i'd thought i'd share it all with you.......

[instar]

surgical removal then bredding would'nt create venomoid hatchys no, since the genes are still there. but if you spliced/cut genes responsible for the formation of venom/glands in a certain number of embryo's perhaps then bred from them, yes, you would have a non ven rrb. Wether that would be any more ethical however is another issue. sounds a bit like deliberating creating hybrids. Certainly be less cruel than surgery, but then the issue of wether or not the venom aids in digestion or not comes up. If it does then you may hit problems, since the new animals digestive system would perhaps not function as well with whatever process the venom does???
intresting thoughts Soul. :wink:

[soulweaver]

yeah the digestive system had come to mind, need more research on that info to find out if it is really needed!

[zoe]

i think it varies with diff species as to whether it aids in digestion doesnt it?

[Hix]

SW:
If you were to go down that track - alter a gene that produces venom - and you were breeding venomless RBBs, then what happens to it if one escapes? It won't survive in the wild without venom.

Incidentally - and I haven't looked at the genetics of venom production - but it wouldn't surprise me if there are several genes that produce the various toxins that comprise venom. There may also be inhibitors in the venom, and destroying those might make them more venomous.

All hypothetical, just me thinking out loud.

Hix

[soulweaver]

nah, it's all good hix.....we were just discussing it and i thought it made for an interesting debate...........i have no intention of even doing this, as i want my snakes too be as natural as they could be........i was just thinking out loud too

[Magpie]

Also, a gene very rarely does only one thing. Removing "the venom gene" would almost certainly have other effects on the snake. The only real possibility would be if one was bred that was born venomless, it may be able to be line bred from to produce a line of venomless elapids.

[Hix]

Originally Posted by Magpie

to produce a line of venomless elapids.

Venomless elapids.

Hardly seems worth it. It'd be like breeding dwarf Olive pythons - you'd be removing one of the primary characteristics (large size) that 'identifies' the species.

Hix

Hix

[jimmy_the_kid]

my opinion is that if ur did it for a fair couple of generations say 15 20 i think its possible that the snakes would eventually devolve the need for venom i mean i wouldnt be all gone but im sure the amount and the toxicty of it would grow less and less thats my opinion

[Fuscus]

We have been docking lambs tails for over 2000 years but the little so-and-sos still insist on growing them. The process of passing aquired characteristics ( like muscles, computer skills or a nicely shaven head ) is called Lamarckian evolution ( good link -> http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/lamarck.html ) but, for the most part, it doesn't exist. It may be possible to pass on aquired immune reponses but the jury is still out on that.
I have another question - supose we do develop a non venomous RBBS - what then? We will have a population where, say, 50% of the animals are venomous and 50% aren't. A pair of non-venomous RBBS may not bred true, say 90% non-vemonous and 10% venomous. To me it is a recipe for disaster and I think we should not even think about going down that path.

[Slateman]

Originally Posted by Fuscus

We have been docking lambs tails for over 2000 years but the little so-and-sos still insist on growing them..

Good one fuscus I think that you answered the question fully.

[NCHERPS]

Originally Posted by zoe

i think it varies with diff species as to whether it aids in digestion doesnt it?

There are as you are all aware varying reports on the digestion theory, but some of the most significent research on it was done by people looking at rattlesnakes, and they found that actually the venom was not just used in it's primary function of killing the animal, but also in the aid of finding it after it has been envenomated.
A rattlesnake waits in the dark and ambushes it's prey, it runs off saying "Ouch", I have a sore back, a whole in my side and a bad head ache! LOL! it then dies after running a fair distance, the rattlesnake then slides off to find it, some might say it uses it tongue and Jacobsons organ to tract it, but, think of it being a area full of rodents, they will all smell alike and so the snake would become confused.
It has actually been said that the snake actually tracts it's prey through it's own venom signature, how amazing is that!

Neil

[soulweaver]

Originally Posted by Fuscus

I think we should not even think about going down that path.

i totally agree with this, but many of us would of said we shouldn't be removing venom glands from elapids, but that is now happening. Who knows what idiots will try later on in life.........

[africancichlidau]

Hey Soul, has that RBBS grown it's teeth back yet?

[soulweaver]

not sure, more worried abt the ones stuck in my arm still...........don't think yellow is a natural skin colour