Herp Lover Needed Urgenly

[scorps]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

To fully understand the situation you really need to spend a few months studying population ecology. The short version of the story is that nature establishes a balance, the reptiles in a population increase in number until the available system can not support any more (the same applies to most types of animals). If you add more, the system can't support them, the balance is tipped, and problems occur. The type of problems depends upon the nature of the system. There are countless possibilities. Best case scenario would be something like a lack of shelter sites, resulting in the reptiles not being able to hide properly, resulting in migratory birds eating them and flying away, leaving the system as it was previously. A likely outcome is that there would not be enough food to support them all, so none of them are properly nourished and while the population remains high, it is made up of undernourished adults which don't reproduce well - an aging, unproductive population is certainly not a good one! In some cases, this can result in the extinction of a local, isolated population. A likely outcome for some species is that they will fight over territory, leaving some animals dead anyway. A possible outcome (likely to happen, but unlikely to happen to a particularly damaging extent) is that the overabundance of a particular species will result in local predators targetting them, and continuing until there are fewer than they started with. Since the predators will most likely stop targetting them soon after they go back to the normal threshold level, it's most likely to basically nullify the relocation effort (best case scenario), although it could be worse. I could go on and on and on, but you get the idea.

Other than the fact that it is absolutely inevitable that the reptile populations will return to their original level one way or another (assuming they aren't wiped out), so there is nothing to be gained, there are concerns about the spread of disease and inappropriate genetics. Whenever people interfere, there are all sorts of risks involved. I am not saying it is best to leave them to be bulldozed because I am heartless, I am saying it because I care enough to have spent many years studying the issue.

Although the uniformed public typically love them, animal releases almost always cause harm and rarely do any good. The only time animals should be released is when a population has been exterminated or severely reduced, the reason for its extermination/reduction has been permanently removed and the population can be reestablished (the other time is when a species is under extreme thread and a population can be established outside its original range, and it is considered better to create an unnatural population at the expense of the local biological community than let the species of interest go extinct - this is extremely rarely a good idea). Releasing animals into a healthy population of their own species is always inappropriate. Sadly, because public opinion is based on emotion and a lack of understanding, animal releases are popular and often fully endorsed by the government (the government is interested in money and keeping the public happy, it cares nothing for ecology). Most of the most spectacularly problematic animal releases have been done with full government support. Fortunately, the most common outcome is simply the released animals dropping dead when released into an area which can't support them.

Keep in mind that a lengthy forum post is nothing compared to several years of studying population ecology, and the full story is much, much more elaborate.

once again sdaji you couldnt be more right

[nuthn2do]

This is not a job for rspca or wires, neither has the authority to act without NPWS being involved

[expansa1]

I've been through the area in question a number of times. There are all sorts of skinks in there and lots of freshwater turtles. If they were removed they could be handed in to wildlife rescue organisations like Sydney metro wildlife rescue. Saves the animals being killed.

THERE ARE ALWAYS OTHER OPTIONS

[tittezzz]

Just spoken to nsw npws & they are chasing the council & developers to gain permission for a small group of LICENCED keepers & breeders to catch SOME OF the heathy specimens. ANYONE WHO MAYBE INTERESTED IN JOINING THE GROUPE WATCH THIS SPACE FOR MORE DETAILS

[pwnewell]

It is usually a condition of development that during demolition / clearing works on site that a qualified fauna catcher/spotter is there to catch and relocate animals.

[Eylandt]

With NPWS approval we'd be interested in helping out. Keep us updated.

[Sdaji]

Originally Posted by tittezzz

It seems such a waste of perfectly good herps.

And indeed, it certainly is a big waste of perfectly good herps, but that's no reason to make a bad situation even worse. It is so admirable that you are so keen to help, but it's important to take action which is going to help, rather than just taking action. If an area of habitat is being destroyed, the sad reality is that the available habit is going to be reduced and so will the population of reptiles (and other animals). We can't just expect to be able to remove all the animals from every development site, put them somewhere else and expect the new sites to maintain their original populations as well as all of the new animals. Each area can only support so many, and nature finds that balance by itself. If you add more than nature can sustain, nature kills the excess. The reality is, their only proper home is being destroyed and we can't change that. Putting them into someone else's home is a destructive thing to do (even though it is often done with the support of the government - let's face it, the government can't even get economic policy right when that's its specialty! We can hardly expect them to get environmental policy right when they don't even care about it!). Unless we can create a new home for them, the best thing to do is not interfere (yes, I know, it's extremely sad, but the alternatives are worse). To give them new homes, we either need to bring them into captivity, or create new habitat for them - which might involve the bulldozing of a shopping center or industrial area very close to the current development, revegetating it and waiting a few years. In this age of urban sprawl, that sort of thing happens VERY infrequently and I suggest it isn't worth persuing.

From here, I will withdraw from this thread. You can lead a horse to water but you can not force it to drink. My head hurts, it's upsetting to see support for negative action and I am too busy to beat my head against this wall any further.

[Gecko_ProCs]

If i can get there i'd be interested to help
keep me up dated

[Gecko_ProCs]

Originally Posted by Sdaji

And indeed, it certainly is a big waste of perfectly good herps, but that's no reason to make a bad situation even worse. It is so admirable that you are so keen to help, but it's important to take action which is going to help, rather than just taking action. If an area of habitat is being destroyed, the sad reality is that the available habit is going to be reduced and so will the population of reptiles (and other animals). We can't just expect to be able to remove all the animals from every development site, put them somewhere else and expect the new sites to maintain their original populations as well as all of the new animals. Each area can only support so many, and nature finds that balance by itself. If you add more than nature can sustain, nature kills the excess. The reality is, their only proper home is being destroyed and we can't change that. Putting them into someone else's home is a destructive thing to do (even though it is often done with the support of the government - let's face it, the government can't even get economic policy right when that's its specialty! We can hardly expect them to get environmental policy right when they don't even care about it!). Unless we can create a new home for them, the best thing to do is not interfere (yes, I know, it's extremely sad, but the alternatives are worse). To give them new homes, we either need to bring them into captivity, or create new habitat for them - which might involve the bulldozing of a shopping center or industrial area very close to the current development, revegetating it and waiting a few years. In this age of urban sprawl, that sort of thing happens VERY infrequently and I suggest it isn't worth persuing.

From here, I will withdraw from this thread. You can lead a horse to water but you can not force it to drink. My head hurts, it's upsetting to see support for negative action and I am too busy to beat my head against this wall any further.

What you have said is true
over population in places is a negative thing but there are also many places where these animals could live where their numbers are few.
Its just a case of finding the right place to relocate them, they dont all have to be placed in the same area, we could spread them out a bit and give them a fighting chance.

[nuthn2do]

Originally Posted by tittezzz

Just spoken to nsw npws & they are chasing the council & developers to gain permission for a small group of LICENCED keepers & breeders to catch SOME OF the heathy specimens. ANYONE WHO MAYBE INTERESTED IN JOINING THE GROUPE WATCH THIS SPACE FOR MORE DETAILS

Someone's leading you up the garden path. NPWS will never agree to this, it would be a legal and insurance nightmare.

[GSXR_Boy]

I think most of them would be gone now anyway after it being made public on an open forum.

[cement]

Just a little info on the wildlife reports that are done on areas to be developed. I am a builder and have built for developers who have employed proper organisations to supply very detailed and expensive and impressive reports on some sites that I have worked on. Coming from a bush background and having an interest in wildlife myself, ( i can recognise a number of animal tracks) I always find these reports disapointing. The reason is that they are done quickly, sometimes in the middle of winter, and though they state that persons have camped out and conducted surveys, I seriously beleive that they camped out, went to the pub at nite, and the beach at day and got a paid holiday. These reports are not worth the paper they are written on or the time it takes to read it.
I have found more signs of life on one property in 4 hrs then these people reckon they found in two weeks.

[GSXR_Boy]

Went for a quick herp just now in the national park and on the way back decided to have a look.
Jumped the fence (pretty sure some of my flesh is still on the barbed wire! lol).
I found heaps of ducks,a re,blue and black bird that thought it was a duck (or just dressed up for Australia day),heaps of minor birds nesting in the cliffs,but no herps.
That's what i thought till i tried another bit and found a water dragon and a little bluie in a piece of pvc pipe.He had no ticks all his toes etc.I hummed and hahed about taking it and moving itbut in the end just left him

[W.T.BUY]

Originally Posted by tittezzz

Just spoken to nsw npws & they are chasing the council & developers to gain permission for a small group of LICENCED keepers & breeders to catch SOME OF the heathy specimens. ANYONE WHO MAYBE INTERESTED IN JOINING THE GROUPE WATCH THIS SPACE FOR MORE DETAILS

Good on ya mate

[Duke]

Just found this thread.
I'd be interested if anything goes down.
I've got nice bush right in front of my place, and our bluey population has been lacking recently.
A pregnant mother just got squshed right in front of my car last week. It had at least three babies that popped out prematurely