Heterozygote Snakes

[Crazy_Snake08]

Hi everybody,

I have an interesting question in relation to heterozygotes. If people have bought het's, bred them, etc. you are probably the best people to answer this question. I never actually thought about this until I saw a wanted add.

I read a wanted add one month ago from a forum that said, "WANTED TO BUY: Hets for albinism from the following categories, preferably females: Darwins and Olives". I understand that the price of het's and wild type snakes are VERY DIFFERENT!!

So the question is: If someone was to purchase a het of any kind off a seller, HOW DO YOU PROVE THAT IT IS A HETEROZYGOTE IF IT LOOKS LIKE A WILD TYPE SNAKE??? For example. how do you prove you are buying a het Darwin carpet for albinism when it looks normal??

Any comments would be great!!! I'm thinking I will get lots of trust answers but I'm just interested in what other people think???

Thanks,
Settle

[Jonno from ERD]

There is absolutely no way to differentiate between a regular "non-het" snake and a het snake. As you said, it is all based on trust.

[albino]

trust is the only way. this problem has been around in the bird industry for 50years and a hell of a lot of people have been burned badly. buy directly from the breeder, and have them microchipped so that if you need to sell them, there's a record. best to have the seller microchip them or chip them the day you pick them up.

a scam that a bird dealer in sydney used to run was to have one 'golden' mutation of the blood finch on display and sell 3pairs of splits ( = hets ) to 50 different buyers, thereby selling 300 birds @ $500ea, when he had imported them from wa at about $30ea. obviously, nobody ever produced the mutation from these birds and all of them lost their money. and no-one could on sell them as they didn't even have the coloured one to convince potential buyers.

[Crazy_Snake08]

ALBINO: that's the exact thing I was thinking. I don't know the suitable price of Dawrin het's for example, but I've read that they are around the $1,000 to $3,000 mark??? If someone can confirm but it's not necessarcy. Let's assume that a wildtype Darwin is between $150 to $300 mark ignoring hypo's etc. that's a huge mark up for a het, all understandable though. If you were to buy the "possible" het that the seller claims and it's NOT, you jsut got ripped off BIG TIME (which you would find out down the track of course come breeding time)!!!

In saying that, if you were the seller you've lost a lot of potential future business nad your reputation down the drain!!!

If it is a TRUST thing, would photos help???? I know you can't take photos or constant video surveillance and monitor every move, but would it help??? Maybe the photos could have a distinct marking on the snake from hatch???

[wokka]

Trust is important but its amazing how the trust can be sorted with documentation. Damages can be claimed in a court of law for missrepresentation. If someone sold a nomal female olive as a het and the buyer mated it with an albino andproduced only normal looking animals it is likely that thefemale is normal. The clutch from the normal olive might be worth say 50K whereas the clutch from the het might have been worth say 150K. It would be worthwhile persuing the loss in court provided the documentation supports the case. Just because reptile breeding is a hobby doesn't exempt it from the rules of society.
Perhaps it is more important to look at the assets of the seller than the genetics of the snake?

[boa]

I think you are confusing possible hets with definite hets, breeding different combinations of hets and albinos together will give you a % of possible hets and a % of definite hets but there is no way of knowing which are which. If you buy possible hets then you are getting just that, the possibility of them being a het, if you buy definite hets then you are guaranteed of their status. You aren't being ripped off if a possible het proves not to be.

[wokka]

Crazysnake, In your example you appear to be referring to hatchoes? Iff they are selling possible Hets it means they came from het to het mating so you should be able to see some albino hatchoes from the same clutch and photoes of the clutch hatching showing apparently nomal and some albinos emerging from the same egg mass.

[Crazy_Snake08]

WOKKA: there is a huge difference in price there!!! I think I would have to agree with the assests of the breeder.

BOA: I didn't know there was a difference between possible and definite hets? Nonetheless, I was just interested how can you know you are investing in something such that you know you're not getting ripped off!!!

Thanks keep the ideas coming. The more I look at snake adds these days in the Herp Trader, papers, net, etc. the more I am seeing het's coming up for sale. It's just bewildered me forking out that sort of money for something you may not get!! Anyhow???

If it is a trust thing, how can you put so much trust in someone when dealing with large sums of money??? But can you trust someone that mcuh when you have never met them before, a stranger for example???

[Crazy_Snake08]

Sorry I don't mean to be referring to just hatchies. I jsut used that as an example. I'm talking any kind of het, hatchling, yearling, subadult, adult.

I guess the whole hatchling scenario would be easier as you have some albinos in the clutch and would be easier to prove.

[wokka]

The same sort of trust happens everyday when you buy a house,car, furniture food.All those things are often misrepresented and buyers dont usually persue the seller but they can.My next door neighbour recently bought a top of the line secondhand 4wd. It was a lemon. After a few legal threats he now has a brand new replacement at no cost.
How often have you bought fruit thats rotten?

[albino]

there's a problem with proving that something doesn't carry a specific gene, and that is just because the buyer doesn't produced any 'coloured' animals is not evidence that the animal doesn't carry the gene, even a supposed het to an albino, producing 1000 normal looking young and no albinos, is not evidence that the supposed het is not a het. ( we all might know what's going on, but it's not evidence )

in addition, if it was say a variety of leucism, which may be caused by say an anomoly on any one of three genes, and these we may refer to as type 1,2 &3. now a leucistic type 1 paired to a leucistic type 3 will produce all normal looking babies ( but double hets ). so if a leuc 1 x het leuc 3 produced a million babies, none would appear leucistic. just look at the tread on leucistic blueys, where probably none shown are actually leucistic, but even if they are referred to as hypos, there are obviously more than one mutation, which don't necessarily match genetically. so a het of one type won't help the colour of another with normal recessive genetics.

[boa]

At the end of the day there is NO way of proving 100% that the animal you buy as a guaranteed het actually is until you breed with it. In exactly the same way as with locality animals you are completely in the hands of the breeder and MOST breeders put their reputation ahead of short term gain.

[Crazy_Snake08]

all trust by the sounds of it.

THanks for all your comments guys, much appreciated, very interesting.

And WOKKA, i've bought a lot of fruit in my time that has been rotten!!! As you say everything in life is based on trust.

[wokka]

At least with hets you can prove with breeding but locality can never be proven . At the end of the day its only a discription of the type of animal.

[boa]

Warwick, I couldn't agree more.