Hook or jigger debate?

[-Peter]

Originally Posted by NCHERPS

I have never heard of the word 'Jigger' until I came to Australia and enrolled in a Wildlife carers course.
As with Tatelina, the instructor started referring to a standard hook as a 'Jigger'.
It amused me and I just put it down to an Australianism. LOL!

However, it appears that the name might just be a Wiresism! LOL!

I will always refer to it for what it is, a Hook!


Neil

or a Stopfordism

[NCHERPS]

Originally Posted by -Peter

or a Stopfordism

LOL Peter!

[TrueBlue]

ozzie python, a jigger/hook and a hoop bag are fine, its tongs that i dont like.

Yes Dave i do see what you mean, and the tongs that you describe do sound remarkably better than any other type on the market.
I just dont like them at all, and think that anyone that has to use a set of tongs to pickup or catch a snake are in the wrong job.
NPWS are promoting the use of these terrible things these days, so i blame it all on them. Its stupid and incompetent of them imo, as they are only trying to save their own butts in the long run.

[-Peter]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue

NPWS are promoting the use of these terrible things these days, so i blame it all on them. Its stupid and incompetent of them imo, as they are only trying to save their own butts in the long run.

Which NPWS is that Rob? I haven't seen anything here to that effect. In fact I think NSW keeps its opinion to itself for insurance reasons. No recommendation means no comebacks.

[Danda_Reptilia]

Originally Posted by Jonno from ERD

G'day Dave

I see the animal cruelty issue as only one of several problem with tongs - there are several others. Firstly, it can give inexperienced handlers a massive false sense of security, leading to complacency and a bite. Secondly, a stressed snake is never going to enjoy been clamped in a set of tongs, regardless of how gentle they are - you know how a snake reacts as soon as you put a pinner on the back of its neck or try and restrain it at all. Thirdly, I just don't see many, if any at all, scenarios where I would prefer to be using tongs over a simple hook and bag set up.

HI Jonno,

Trust me when I say that using the "raptor" advertised in the latest issue of RA does not give a handler a false sense of security, leading to complacency. I have been involved in a few of the training courses here in Tassie and you would be surprised at the number of trainees that won't tail (or handle) any snake, yet feel so comfortable in using the "Raptor".

I suppose if you look deep enough, any handling of wildlife has a degree of ethics/cruelty associated with it.

Many a time I have preferred to use the raptor as opposed to pinning or tailing a 4ft aggravated copperhead. Personal choice and ability is the main issue.

As for the polled question.....personally a hook is a hook, a pinner is a pinner and a jigger is used for fishing.....however, cossies are bathers and trunks, so I feel it all depends on where you come from and what you have learnt and are used to.

[TrueBlue]

Peter, most QPWS offices make relocators use them when they are being trained.

Danda Reptilia, imo those trainees should not be trained in snake handling and should maybe take up knitting or something less intimidating if that is the case, as they are definitley in the wrong job.
Ive kept and bred a number of copperheads over the years, and never had a problem with any of them, infact i find them to be fairly docile as far as alot of elapids go, same as tigers.

[snakehandler]

Again it must be said, there are different circumstances which may require different tools, it is not always a matter of skill or ability, but safety. If a person is properly trained and uses the latest equipment there should be no harm with any technique. Incompetance leads to injuries to the animals, regardless of technique.

[TrueBlue]

yes i agree, and its incompetence that makes people want to use a pair of tongs.!!!
If they were competent handlers they would not need to use them. Hook and hoop bag is all thats required imo.
Just as jonno has said, ive never been in a situation where i needed to use tongs and ive relocated snakes from just about every situation you could think of, safely, without harm to the snake, other people or myself.

[Bombie]

parks and wildlife are a government agency, why does it come as a surprise to anyone that they are going to recommend the safest method to cover themselves legally! can you imaigne the liability insurance if they were going to teach new people to tail a taipan or eastern brown on a 1 or 2 day course!!!!

i realise the injury element as far as the snake goes, but at the end of the day as someone already mentioned you have to put human life first and foremost over the snake.

and as far as stressing the snake goes, i am pretty sure holding a 5 or 6 foot brown by his tail is not going to be the most comfortable thing in the world for him either, just as much as having your neck pinned to the ground and then being head grabbed wouldn't be a barrel of laughs.

the reason we need snake catchers is to reduce the risk element of people coming into unnecessary contact with dangerous snakes, and also to reduce the need for people tio take out the old shovel! a slightly stressed snake released from a set of tongs is still better than a dead snake!

i understand the comments from some of the more experienced catchers here, but i disagree when they say if you cant tail a snake you should take up knitting as someone put it. if i had a large brown in my house around my little girl, i would rather see an available catcher come out and remove it with tongs than have no-one come out at all!

anyway, thats my thoughts for the moment,
bombie

[Danda_Reptilia]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue

Peter, most QPWS offices make relocators use them when they are being trained.

Danda Reptilia, imo those trainees should not be trained in snake handling and should maybe take up knitting or something less intimidating if that is the case, as they are definitley in the wrong job.
Ive kept and bred a number of copperheads over the years, and never had a problem with any of them, infact i find them to be fairly docile as far as alot of elapids go, same as tigers.

Thanks TrueBlue for suggesting that I am not an experienced handler or catcher and therefore should take up knitting....despite the fact that I am State coordinator for Reptile Rescue and have a registered display business.

Maybe I should take up a less demanding hobby like couch potato?????????????

PERSONALLY, I assess each situation on its own merits and catch and remove the errant snake in the safest way possible for myself.....whether that be "raptor", "hook", "tail" or whatever other way I feel fit.

[Tatelina]

Originally Posted by snakehandler

Incompetance leads to injuries to the animals, regardless of technique.

As does complacency when people fall into a false sense of security when using tongs.

[snakehandler]

Tongs do not set up for complacency, inexperience, incompetance and a poor attitude are resposible for complacency. I have seen very complacent people hooking, tailing, pinning and using tongs, they have got themselves into trouble, not the technique. Tongs are not the answer to all handling, tongs are a useful tool. More importantly good training and a common sense apporach are much more important, again regardless of technique.

Watch the complacent attitude of some of the TV personalities, what gets them into trouble?.....is it the tool in their hand?????

[snakehandler]

TrueBlue, its not incompetence, nor lack of experience that has a person choose tongs over other techniques, its personal preference. Just like tailing, pinning or hooking. Although it may seem to some that this is an easy way out, perhaps there are other mitigating circumstances which are in play which we do not know about. I do not say tongs are the only way to go, infact far from it.

[NCHERPS]

Originally Posted by snakehandler

TrueBlue, its not incompetence, nor lack of experience that has a person choose tongs over other techniques, its personal preference. Just like tailing, pinning or hooking. Although it may seem to some that this is an easy way out, perhaps there are other mitigating circumstances which are in play which we do not know about. I do not say tongs are the only way to go, infact far from it.

I agree with you in regards to circumstances, Hugsta and I once got a call out to a brown snake stuck down a 20 foot deep hole.
When we got there the snake was clearly visible, floating on some polystyrene in the middle of the hole with 4 foot of water below. We had to climb down, which was hard enough, then reach over with the tongs and grab the snake before depositing it into a hoop bag.

It was not an easy task, but one we could not of done without the use of the tongs.


Neil

[-Peter]

Originally Posted by TrueBlue

Peter, most QPWS offices make relocators use them when they are being trained.

That prodded my memory, some years back a parks worker in QLD died after being bitten while using tongs as recommended by his employer.