Lace Monitors

[serpenttongue]

Okay guys, i would imagine that most of us are against crossing pythons to create hybrid/intergrades. But what about Lace Monitors ?
For those of us that keep them its well known that when you breed a Bells Lacey with a common form you dont get a mixed pattern. Instead you will get both Bells($1200) and common Laceys($600) from the same clutch. But surely these are still considered intergrades/hybrids ?
I myself own common Laceys whose father was a Bells Lacey. So in effect my laceys carry the Bells gene and if they lay eggs they couldl hatch as both common and Bells Laceys, right ?
Now, although my Laceys are patterned as common form Sydney Laceys wouldn't it be right to say that i do not own pure Sydney Laceys ? And that i would be misinforming herpers if i sold hatchling Bells as "pure Bells" when their father could have been a Sydney Lacey or vice versa ?

I would like others opinions on this as i dont know all the ins and outs and i may be completely wrong with what i have written.

[hugsta]

IMO, It is either a normal lacey or a bells lacey. I would imagine if you would put two bells together from seperate lineage and assumed that they both had one normal and one bells form parent, they would still have bells form hatchies and no normals.

Some ppl are fussy about heritage and where there animals came from but if you looked at a B&G jungle and the owner new nothing of it's heritage would you not buy it?? I still would. Providing it didn't look like it was cross bred with something from another morelia species. If it looks like what it is supposed to be then I don't think it matters. They are fairly different in looks so if I saw a bells then I would buy it regardless of it's parents. It will sill have the bells gene in it.

Just my thoughts......

[Simon_Archibald]

ST,
Breeding Bells and Normal phase Lace Monitors is not hybridising or crossing in any form of the words. Bells and Normal phases occur in the same area (such as Tamworth, NSW) and breed together in the wild. There is nothing immoral about breeding a male bells to a female normal, or vice versa. In fact, most Lacie breeders in Australia have a mix of both colour patterns in their breeding groups.

Now, the second point is an interesting theory (one I wondered about myself) but somehow the split does not result in the juveniles carrying the gene for the opposite colour form. For example...if you bred a normal male to a bells female, you would end up with a rough 50% of the clutch would be bells animals, 50% of the clutch would be normal animals. If you were then to breed one of the normal offspring to another normal, you could not possibly hope to get any bells animals down the line.

Simon Archibald

[hugsta]

you could not possibly hope to get any bells animals down the line.

Where did you learn this Simon? Very interesting, you would think it could carry the genes of each parent.

[Simon_Archibald]

Daz,
I had this discussion with about 3 other people who all have more experience than me. One of those keepers simply said it was unlikely to occur and the other 2 both said that through 2 generations there was none produced....not sure if it would happen after that...have no first-hand experience myself :-)

Simon Archibald

[hugsta]

Thanks for that Simon, makes you wonder about genetics doesn't it.

[Jonny]

Ive tried talking to lacie breeders as well to try and work out the genetics but they all hadn't done specific breeding as they kept bells and normals together.

One bred a normal male with bells female and she dropped all bells last season.

[hugsta]

One bred a normal male with bells female and she dropped all bells last season

Doesn't appear to have been much research into this compared to snakes.

[Jonny]

yeah, trust me ive tried to get this info out of every breeder of lacies I know but they all have not much of an idea how it works.

Hopefully someone reading this thread knows something about the genetics

[hugsta]

A mate of mine just bought a pair of juvie laceys, a bells and a normal (I think they were from Daniel Cull?) He was also told that they will breed bells and normals.

[BROWNS]

OK so it seema as though the gene is co dominant if appearing in 50% of the first generation and the other 50% being normals not producing the bells phase a couple of generations later..this is also something i have discussed with very succesful breeders of laceys of both forms.

As Simon said both phases occur in the same areas so i would not call it hybridizing or crossing.Does anyone know of breeding 2 bells phase laceys and if all the offspring were bells phase?Interesting topic...i love genetics!

[Simon_Archibald]

Browns,
If 2 Bells animals are bred together, they should produce all Bells offspring, similarly 2 normal phase animals should produce all normal offspring.

Also I should have mentioned that when breeding a bells to a normal, the split is not always 50/50 bells to normal offspring. There is a fluctuation and at least one person I've spoken to said that they tend to have a higher percentage of Bells animals in a clutch.

Simon Archibald