leading question...

[Hix]

Originally Posted by cwarren72

And intergade by definition is stated as.....
Intergrade:
An animal which shows the mixed characteristics of two subspecies at the border of both their ranges.
Whereas a cross-breed or hybrid is as follows

Bilogically:The offspring of two different species, or of two different genera. Or where two non-bordering subspecies are mated.

Ummm.........where are these definitions stated?

Originally Posted by cwarren

Now considering the scientific results as mentioned by Hix There can be no such thing as a diamond/carpet cross they all have to be classed as Intergrades. The only question now is should there now be a seperate class for Intergrades as a species????? and if so should it be region specific to identify localities of the Intergrades.

Firstly: I reported what I was told. I didn't say that I accepted their findings.

Secondly: the word 'cross' is acceptable - a "diamond/carpet cross" means you have bred a diamond and a carpet together. I think what you meant to say was "...no such thing as a diamond/carpet hybrid...".

Thirdly: intergrades, by their very nature, are not species.



Hix

[Nome]

Originally Posted by cwarren72

.
Now considering the scientific results as mentioned by Hix There can be no such thing as a diamond/carpet cross they all have to be classed as Intergrades.

Can you please explain more how you came to this conclusion? Especially considering your definition of intergrades earlier?

[cwarren72]

I have already explained....These definitions can be found all through the Net....You only need search....Now some of you may want to jump up and down and start with the same old rhetoric that there can't be such a thing as a diamond/Carpet intergrade but given things that have now been mentioned the evidence can't be ignored. Hix I find it interesting that when you first mentioned what you were told you never mentioned that you did not accept their findings but now that the purpose of this thread has been made evident you now try to make it sound like you disagree and yet when you posted the mentioned findings thus far you gave the impression that you were happy to go along with those findings. IMO anyway. As for the term Hybrid or Cross they have been used in the same context for ages so it is just easier to get rid of both of them rather then try to explain the difference. Also I am extremely curious by the statment that Intergrades by their very nature are not a species??? Then what are they if not a species??? do you mean seperate species?? Because they are not a coastal nor are they a diamond...They are indeed Intergrades???

[junglepython2]

Coastals and Diamonds are the same species, so an intergrade is also the same species. Diamonds and coastals are generally considered a separate subspecies which some are now disputing.
An intergrade is a mix of the two subspecies where they meet in the wild, and is different to a straight cross between a diamond and a carpet.

[Mr feegle]

lol lol this is great i love it

[cwarren72]

here we go again... How is an Intergrade different to a cross?? this is where people amaze me. You like to say something but not back it up with an explanation. Two neighbouring subspecies be they naturally bred or not they are still they same result and therefore the same ....Intergrade....I can't understand why it is that people can't just except the word Intergrade???

[Mr feegle]

imo
if you have a dimond from wollongong amd a coastal from brisbane = hybread as they in the wild wouldnt have a chance to bread
but a dimond and a coastal from port mac whould in theroy have a natural chace of breading
Then you would have a intergrade
I think it all comes down to the location of the snakes and the behaviour in the wild.
How you would regulate this, would be dependent on how much you trust the breader you are buying from.
As i said Just my Opinion

[junglepython2]

An Intergrade implies a local mixing of subspecies where they happen to meet, so a gradient of characteristics should be seen from one sub-species to the other, this occurs over generations. And as someone else pointed out intergrades breed with intergrades and begin to develop their own characteristics. It's not 50% coastal and 50% diamond.

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by cwarren72

here we go again... How is an Intergrade different to a cross?? this is where people amaze me. You like to say something but not back it up with an explanation. Two neighbouring subspecies be they naturally bred or not they are still they same result and therefore the same ....Intergrade....I can't understand why it is that people can't just except the word Intergrade???

I've been thinking the exact same thing. A diamond and a Coastal Carpet meet one night. The diamond buys the carpet a drink and they eventually retire to a nice, soft leafy spot. The next morning the diamond wakes up and does the runner while the coastal is in the shower.

By the majority of the logic here an intergrade (Diamond/Coastal for this argument) is only a naturally occuring species, where as, if I were to take a diamond and a coastal and but them together I would have nothing but offspring that should be frozen (according to some members).

How does this add up?????

A diamond and a coastal together produce the exact same offspring whether they are in a wild state or captive state.

And before anyone comes up and says "but its locale specific" if its locale specific why isn't there a concern with putting eden diamonds with gosford diamonds or brissie carpets with cairns carpets?

Is it because they are the same species?

Aren't intergrades naturally occuring?

IMO they are the saame species or they wouldn't produce fertile offspring.

[cwarren72]

Originally Posted by Mr feegle

imo
if you have a dimond from wollongong amd a coastal from brisbane = hybread as they in the wild wouldnt have a chance to bread
but a dimond and a coastal from port mac whould in theroy have a natural chace of breading
Then you would have a intergrade
I think it all comes down to the location of the snakes and the behaviour in the wild.
How you would regulate this, would be dependent on how much you trust the breader you are buying from.
As i said Just my Opinion

mate you have sumed it up perfectly. But the only problem is that you would have to be able to correctly identify the locality of the carpet. But otherwise you hit the nail on the head

Also you are right Lucas with the regional zones for carpets...No one complains when they breed and are from different regions they just accept it so diamond/carpet are no different

[Lucas]

I believe they are one the same

[cwarren72]

Yeah well there are some who have believed all along that they are one and the same and only differ due to locality in the same manner some regions have more of one colour type such as the commonly called brisbane carpet which are prodominately brown in colour. I am hoping this will help ease people into the idea of Intergrades as it always seems to bring much debat.

[Lucas]

Its a touchy topic. Purists have no worry with inbreeding generations of animals to gain a colour trait or pattern or attempt to manipulate the animals genes but the thought of a naturally occuring intergrade brings the hackles up and the claws out.

[Mr feegle]

warren i havent been keeping that long but alll i seen to see and hear about is dealers and breaders you cant trust
it would be nice to hear about the breaders that a good and are dependable.
Then inergeades imo would be a reconisable sub sub species

[Lucas]

intergrades are recognised but only if it is naturally occuring. IMO an intergrade is an intergrade, regardless of where it came from..........And they are all good.