making snakes "venomoid"? curious+questions

[Kenshin]

how long have they been alive for after haveing the operation done?

[ssssnakeman]

its been a while now i think,i always go to the shows when they are on locally and hes had the same snakes for years now i think,

[OuZo]

Imagine being fully awake but paralysed when someone slices into your skin and rips out a gland. Disgusting torture I say

[geckodan]

Most veterinarians would veiw this as they do tail docking - that is an
unneccessary surgical procedure to satisfy the desires or expectations of
humans, and not of benefit to, or in the best interests of, the animal. My reading of
the Veterinary Surgeons Act, Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act, and
veterinarians professional conduct guide (at least in my state of NSW) suggest
that someone could be liable for prosecution if they have performed these
procedures. And anyone who is not a veterinarian who performed these procedures
would be in much deeper hot water! I am sure that authorities would be keen to
investigate such surgical procedures.

In discussing this topic with other veterinarians (especially in the US) it
becomes apparent that there are considerable other legal and liability issues.
These snakes can never be guaranteed de-venomed. The surgery could be
incomplete, or incorrectly performed. Some snakes develop "compensatory"
glandular tissue from a few cells remaining. Some snakes that have been
devenomed have become hot again some years down the track. Who gets sued then
should someone get bitten??? I would suggest the person who promoted or
performed the procedure. I can even imagine that simply by the email posting
some liability already exists: "I first heard about it on this list from a post
by... and got Dr... to perform the procedure, and my son and 3 of his classmates
were bitten and one died, and 3 needed lifelong treatment for the hypoxic brain
damage that ensued"... Lawyer: "Oh I wonder who we can sue for this then???"
If you can never guarantee them safe, then what is the point?? If you must
handle them as if they are hot, what is the point of such surgical interference.

Snakes without the silicon implants develop a strange sunken scar on the side of
their head. The safety of the "venomicals" (silicon venom gland replacement)
has never been established. Why impose such pointless trauma on an animal you
care about??

I feel privileged and lucky to be a veterinarian with all the amazing things we
can do to benefit animals. But as Spider-Man says "with great power comes great
responsibility", and I believe that just because we can do something does not
mean we should. I would never create a venomoid snake, and I would actively
discourage others from doing the same. I hope the practice disappears quickly.
I then corresponded with , an amateur herpetoculturist who I
understood lodged a complaint with the Victorian RSPCA. An unnamed professional
herpetologist whom I greatly respect then pointed out some zoo situations (pits)
where venomoid snakes might help if a child fell in, for example. In this
hypothetical situation the snakes were "secret" venomoids, and were always
treated as hot, and should be milked regularly to ensure a lack of venom. If
carried out under appropriate conditions of sterility, anaesthesia, and
analgesia I would concede some circumstances where the procedure has role.

Most reptile vets in Australia are involved daily in a reptile vet chat group. We had a similar discussion a few months ago and above is part of the discussion (modified to protest both the innocent and the blatently guilty).

[Wrasse]

... and female children in some countries are still circumcised when they reach a certain age, no anaesthetic, just held down, cut and stitched. Sure, they look normal on the outside too, wouldn't like to know what memories they hold and how it affects them as adults.

[basketcase]

even if it's done properly there's still the issue, as nome said, of how theyre portrayed and accepted when free handled.

in my mind you may as well chop the head off with a shovel and pass it around, cause its the same thing. youre not getting the whole snake because some idiot has tampered with nature.

i can remember a show david williams did with... i think it was browns and taipans? not sure but anyway, he sat in a box on a chair surrounded by them while ppl watch on in amazment at this "lunatic". he was demonstrating to ppl the nature of these animals. W.H.S.R.N. does exactly the opposite, he's stupifying the general public and annoying the herp community

and its very sad jmo

[OuZo]

And doesn't he go around claiming he's fought for us to have the right to keep herps etc etc blah blah but meanwhile he's giving people like the RSPCA really fantastic reasons to believe we're all menaces and to take that right away?

even if it's done properly there's still the issue, as nome said, of how theyre portrayed and accepted when free handled.

Exactly...infront of kids for gods sake..."Here look at this pretty snake...don't worry, you can pick him up he can't hurt you". What do you think's gonna happen if the kid sees the same "pretty snake" in the wild? Pfft

[Nome]

ssssnakeman, have you ever read how that person did the procedure? It's their, how cruelly he performed it, in his own words of how the snakes were strapped down, not anethetised etc.

Did you trust that that snake your son is holding is 100% not going to envenomate him if bitten? Taken that this person is not a qualified vet in anyway, shape or form.

It is not a risk I would take with my own children, and also an example I would not like them to have.

[Moclobe]

Originally Posted by geckodan

Even in the above hypothetical situation I have to say that if there is a chance of a child falling into a pit of venomous snake then the zoo exhibit need to be redesigned not the snakes.

Venomous snake should not be free handled full stop making them venomoids does not change this fact. You wouldn't let your child play russian roulette with a gun so why let them do it with a snake.

Reptile shows and displays must be all about teaching the public to be respectful of the animals and encourage the proper care of these animals in captivity. What message does butchering these snakes to "make them safe" send to the public?
regards David

[beknluke]

Originally Posted by OuZo

Imagine being fully awake but paralysed when someone slices into your skin and rips out a gland. Disgusting torture I say

Hey Ouzo
They're 'lettuce muncher-on-er-ers'

But yes, throwing names at the ppl responsible aside, I think it's disgusting.
I wouldn't mind sticking the ppl in a fridge for a while and chopping off some of their vitals. Do you think they'd enjoy it?? :roll:

[soulweaver]

IMO if it was for a medical reason, i.e infection that would kill the snake then i would say yes go ahead and do it, but only if that person was a vet.....otherwise leave them alone.....It seems that is human nature to cut and slice things, hell we've been doing it to ourselves for decades in the name of beauty..

[Menagerie]

just out of curiousity, if a proper vet performed this procedure are they able to put the snake under instead of just freezing it?

[BROWNS]

A bit off topic but has anyone seen this guys dvd which is for sale where he has tigers eating Christmas Ham and adders with retrovirus in with all his other adders in the same room.

If anyone has seen it they'll know what i mean and for those who haven't if you get a chance to see this it will give you a perfect understanding on what the unamed Ray is like,it's absolurtly spun out and you'll see and hear things that will leave you gasping

[Bob2]

IMO if it was for a medical reason, i.e infection that would kill the snake then i would say yes go ahead and do it, but only if that person was a vet.....

This is the only good reason for it. As for showing kids that it's OK to play with venomous snakes, that's just stupidity. I think kids should be taught that the only snake they can touch is one their parents have said they can. eg, My 6 y.o. spotted a keelback and told me it was a childrens python. It could have been a taipan and he'd call it a childrens python. Everything is a childrens python to him.
For someone to do an educational show for children and take away the danger element of venomous snakes is irresponsible. I'm only going on what has been stated here about what goes on in this show as I haven't seen one personal.

[geckodan]

just out of curiousity, if a proper vet performed this procedure are they able to put the snake under instead of just freezing it?

Most definately, freezing is not an anaesthetic just a means of making it hard to escape. They still feel full pain, they just can't respond to it.