Should the herp-community be concerned about ... ?

[toxinologist]

Hi folks,

Given that there are a multitude of organisations out there (such as PETA, various other animal rights bodies, some RSPCA's etc) that would love any excuse to put the keeping of animals under a blowtorch of contempt in the hope of taking away our rights to pursue a legitimate interest I thought it might be timely to pose this question for discussion:

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Should the herp-community be concerned about the actions of individual members?

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In considering your responses I would like you all to consider the following hypothetical scenario:

A herper decides that he wants to be able to show off with venomous snakes in front of an audience but doesn't want to pay out a fortune in exhorbitant insurance premiums for public liability cover. To get around this he decides to buy some sutures and scalpel blades, and after putting his snakes in the refrigerator until their core temperatures drop to dangerous levels and they become torpid, he will sticky tape them to blocks of wood, use rubber bands and nails to pry open their mouths, and then proceed to hack out their venom glands ...

After all ... no venom, no liability ... right?

Assume that the snakes survive this mutilation at the hands of the person legally responsible for their care. Note however that this person is not a qualified veterinarian, does not have any form of ethical approval to carry out animal experiments, and in actually performing the operations committed a number of animal cruelty and related offences.

The herper then decides to publicise his "success" and takes these home-made "venomoid" snakes along to a public meeting held by an amateur reptile club. At this meeting he proceeds to hand out his newly butchered snakes to members of the audience, including very young (and probably impressionable) children, and allows them to freely handle the snakes...

Now I know that the scenario above sounds very improbable, and perhaps it is, but it raises a number of issues about responsible conduct and animal welfare that I think we should all discuss. In fairness we need to also consider the various alternative perspectives as well and try to look at this sort of issue from all angles. Some of the angles to consider might be:

1. This only involves one individual right? And surely what one individual does should be none of our business ...? or should it?

2. Sure the law says that this sort of backyard surgery is illegal, but didn't the snakes survive? No harm done then eh?

3. Even if PETA etc got hold of this sort of story, surely nobody would believe such a fairytale?

4. The actions of an individual have nothing to do with the actions of all herpers ... or do they?

5. There is nothing wrong with letting young kids handle venomoid snakes - after all, the venoms glands are long gone arn't they?

6. Venomoid snakes make life easier for everyone - just think we can all act like Steve Irwin at last - without the fear of injury...!

7. Backyard surgery is a reprehensible activity performed by individuals who have no consideration for their animals whatsoever - they deserve our public vilification and contempt - and if they break the law, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

8. If we as a community of herpers want to be treated as something more than a bunch of backwoods retards, petty criminals and trailer trash (no offence anyone ...) then we have to take responsibility for policing our hobby and should not condone these sorts of actions by refusing to allow them to be debated; pretending they don't happen; or giving our unspoken approval by allowing individuals to advertise butchered animals for sale ...

Please note again that this is a hypothetical scenario and a question directed against no one individual person ... please make sure that you do not post replies directed against any one individual or organisation - keep the discussion on the topic and please try to be constructive in your responses ...

Cheers


David

[instar]

Yes! such person/persons should be reported and dealt with by the appropriate authority.
Dangerous practices make us all vulnerable to harsh laws and regulations designed to stop such practices, after the fact. media interest in such storys, however will do no good for the herp community.

[Incredible_Reptiles]

They should absolutely be reported. This would put a further negative eye on the herp community.

[RAZZA]

[Moclobe]

I hypothetical spoke to the RSPCA regarding a hypothetical complaint that I hypothetically made against just such a hypotetical person.

The resault of the hypothetical phone call was this. The RSPCA had received many such hypothetical complaints against said hypothetical person and were in the process of collecting material with the hope of pursuing action against the hypothetical person.

This is of course all hypothetical.

Regards David

PS I would encourage everyone who has not made a hypothetical complaint against such a hypothetical person to do so. You can contact the RSPCA on 03 9224 2222

[Slateman]

UUUUH No coment
Just warning.
Please do not use any names in the future, Only if you stating events you can proove. Some people are bit touchy about public opinion.

[peterescue]

I think the thrust of this is that are we as Australian herpers mature enough to deal with the things that are wrong or should we continue down the road as a bunch of cowboys that we currently appear to be.
The herp community needs to have the ability to be treated like any other interest group. Not as a bunch of outsiders who condone criminal behaviour and animal cruelty. Nor as people who consider their own animal so contemtable that butchering is an exceptable part of it.
If you cant do it to a kitten dont do it to a reptile.
Peter

[cwarren72]

I think the sad part of this little scenario is that it needs to be asked at all. I mean I think that all the what ifs need not be asked for if there is any confusion in your minds as to the right or wrong thing to do then it should be you on the chopping block having your glands ripped out. I know that this topic was more then likely set in order to spark a bit of chat but the act of asking such a ludicrous question is in itself imoral. Just my train of thought you may choose to agree or disagree as you see fit.

[toxinologist]

It is a shame indeed that I have to ask this question ... an even greater shame that a very similar scenario is currently being played out in Australia ... and that an Australian herp society actually allowed such a demonstration to take place ...

No wonder many in the general public, and more particularly those in the public service that administer relevant legislation have such a poor opinion of reptile enthusiasts...

David

[RAZZA]