The world is our vivarium

[SlothHead]

As mentioned in the other thread,

I have read countless posts regarding this idea about, it is bad to keep a juvi in a big enclosure because it stresses them out blah blah blah.

Who was the first person to come up with this concept, juvinile snakes and other, stuff it, all animals arent born into little worlds where they go untouched until they are of adequate size.

A juvinile anything, lets say childrens or bredli what ever doesnt matter, a juvi is born into a world where no walls exist. Who is to say that the snake is stressed.

Each snake will thermoregulate through their surroundings, whether that be basking on a rock, climbing a tree, hiding in a tree hollow, or heading below ground. What ever the reason, wild snakes will thermoregulate without mum telling them how, it is inate behaviour.

It is also inhate behaviour that ensures that they eat.

Lets say for a moment that, a large enclosure is no good as it causes stress, then this would imply that a small enclosure is better, but how small is right. Now figures are thrown around to say dimensions and this and that, but are these dimensions that are quoted for enclosures merely to satisfy an economic descision. i.e. big enclosures take up a lot of room and therefore cost more. floor space, materials etc etc.

Any one who has read the various articles on homerange of species will see that though they dont travel far, snakes arent confined to 2m enclosure their entire life.

I agree that we cant mimic the wild. and the obvious reason for a snake to wander is through food and reproduction.

But lets get back on track,
(I STAND AND PEERING AROUND THE ROOM AT THE FLABBERGASTED AUDIENCE...THUMPING THE TABLE WITH AND ENRAGED FIST and continue)

Juvinile snakes dont get stressed in a large enclosure that provides adequate hides, thermoclines, humidity etc. It just doesnt make sense. If they are left alone, and not have big ugly heads (POINTING AT MY OWN HEAD) peering in at them, then there is no real reason for stress to attack.

That is my case
(AND I SIT HAPPY WITH MY SELF< GRINNING, THINkING ABOUT THE BEER I WILL BE DRINKING AT THE PARTY FOR WHEN OUR TEAM WINS THIS GREAT DEBATE)

[fidzy]

i completely agree with you

[Xenogenesis]

We don't take kindly to your kind round' here.

[fidzy]

what kind is that

[Xenogenesis]

Nah but sereously, I've got a 10month old jungle in a 5ftX2ftX2ft tank.
He's not stressed at all, the tank is riddled with hides, and in about a week i'm going to expand the tank upwards 2ft so it'll be a 5 X 4 X 2ft.
I agree with your arguements, provided they have sufficient hides.

And you can have your beer back, I'll stick to the bourbon

[fidzy]

im about to move my coastal carpet into a 6ft by 2ft by 2ft enclosure

[Xenogenesis]

... how old is he/she?

[DiamondAsh]

** sits back and waits for the board to implode ** hahahahah




I keep our juvi MD in the same size large cage as our Diamond Adult. The MD doesn't have a problem, (about three hides) as he found one very quickly on the top shelf and likes to hang out there despite the often extreme temperature up the very top. Other than the fact he is snappy by nature from when we purchased him, he doesn't seemed "stressed" as a lot of people state and will quite often come to the glass while stretching to have a look at the outside world. My hatchie Diamond is currently in a click-clack in the same enclosure as the MD, only he is located on the floor. He never seems stressed and is constantly on his little branch and only in his hide just after he has been fed. If it wasn't for the MD and not currently having enough enclosures I would have no problem re-locating my hatchie to the larger enclosure and just provide more cover for him. When he was purchased, he was in an enclosure half the size of the large one and used to hide on a small plastic branch and is a very placid snake.

I'm very interested in how snakes do handle life on the "outside" as the trend in husbandry is to bundle them up tight like a new-born human.

[Xenogenesis]

I'd also like to add to this thread i detest these people that keep snakes in their min size requirements just to save on construction costs of their vivs.

[fidzy]

my coastal is 2 years old and 105 cm long

[JandC_Reptiles]

Stress issue aside for now
it once again comes down to available space within the Herp room.
If you only have the 1 snake or maybe even a couple, larger enclosures may be ok provided they have alot of hides etc. But for those with larger collections (especially those that are breeding and producing in excess of 50-100 hatchlings) a rack holding a bulk amount of click clacks would be the better option. I mean who has room for 50+ 4ft enclosures?

Now the stress issue
I have only ever kept 2 juvenile snakes in 4x2x2's years ago and it was only temporary.
One handled it fine with no issues, but the other became very snappy, and I put the bitey nature down to stress & a lack of feeling secure because it was a well behaved snake before the introduction to the 4x2x2. SO I do not have enough actual hands on experience to determin with certainty if it does infact stress them or not, but from what I have been told & read + the very little I have seen/experienced myself with 2 of my own animals I would have to agree it MAY OR MAY NOT stress them depending on the individual snake.

[Xenogenesis]

Hum, I don't want this to get nasty so i'm only shootin ideas around, But for "Hatchlings" as you say, then click clacks are understandable, but i'm talking where the breeders are housed in 3X2ft enclosures and such, people like that, that are breeding, shouldnt be if they don't have the space, IMO.

[Xenogenesis]

And i see how i worded my post incorrectly, putting the assumption up that i detest people who house hatchies in click clacks, what i meant was people who house 2 year olds etc in small enclosures. and i Don't mean you fidzy, you're moving him/her into a 6ft so kudos points to you.

[SlothHead]

(STANDING, TAKING MY POSITION BACK AT THE PODIUM I STRAIGHTEN MY TIE, AND BREATH DEEPLY)

(I SOFTLY SPEAK)

If you are having issues with space, thus forcing you to place your snakes into smaller enclosures, i say this....

(SHOUTING WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY THROWING THE PODIUM)

Get a bigger bloody place

(THEN I GIGGLE WITH MADMEN LAUGHTER)

AND SIT

**** the wife just yelled out to tell me that one of the blondes are shedding, be back soon

[Xenogenesis]

Yeah, If you run out of room because you have so many snakes, then don't down their cage sizes, either get more room or stop getting snakes.