TOD Discussion

[hazzard]

I love the way people reccomend the use of pesticides.

Whilst "TOD" has low mammalian toxicity, continual use of such as a residual leads to a cumulative effect. Hence why today they no longer spray it in Cabin Crew areas because of continual exposure to staff and related pesticide illnesses.

In todays age we talk about integrated pest management and resistance and biological control.

Integrated pest management is using everything accceptable to achieve a control and to only interveine with pesticides as a last resort. This helps prevent resistance build up. Unfortunately it's usually what we all first reach for because we "can see it happen"

Apart from the fact there is no conclusive scientific information "Yet" on the use of TOD and it's long term effect on reptiles many use it like household fly-spray. I've heard of cases where people spray every two weeks "just in case" which is the golden rule of what not to do in any pest situation.

Pemerthrin is hardly ever reccomended for mites in any other industry as because of the ease of resistance build ups in populations. So to reccomend spraying it regularly is a dangerous practice on two fronts. Those mites that survive will pass on resistance to future generations breeding TOD resistant mite populations and the potential residual build up in your reptile from continual use with the result of possible long term health effects.

Today there are a range of alternatives that can be used first, such as the design of a relatively mite proof enclosure, all gaps silicon sealed, easily disposable substrate. The predatory mite known as Hypoaspis miles commonly used in America. Very effective in display enclosures with substrates where mites and eggs hide plus other products etc, etc.

Maybe we should take a lead in this industry and stop being single minded like previous generations of pest controllers and come up with an integrated approach to mite control. Then and only then will products like "TOD" remain effective for a long time.

Your thoughts?

[krissy78]

while what you say may very well be true, what alternative method is there that you suggest

[swingonthespiral]

very much like the organic food thing..... i agree, this is something they wouldnt be subject to in the wild and if there are alternatives i think we should all try and use them first before resorting to chemicals...

thanks for the info...

[Chimera]

I think the case you present about tolerance and residual build up is only valid in case of half hearted attempts at mite eradication. A snake has it's own defense against mites which is to soak in it's water bowl thus drowning the mites.

I think if people follow all the basic steps in mite eradication the exposure to TOD on the part of the snake can be minimised. If each attempt to eradicate mites is followed through to completion then the potential for genetically passed tolerance to TOD is removed.

Having said that, natural alternatives such as the predatory mite if successful assist in the prevention of problems. Prevention is ALWAYS better then treatment however bi-weekly sprays of TOD in enclosures is probably overkill.

[Earthling]

Yeah your right hazard. But even my herp vet who hates tod still says its the best thing to use IF they have mites.

Do the Hypoaspis miles work in killing all mites and eggs?

[hazzard]

Yes the predators work on all stages of mites. Anthony Stimpson will have information on them at this years "Wild Expo"

[hazzard]

Originally Posted by Chimera

I think the case you present about tolerance and residual build up is only valid in case of half hearted attempts at mite eradication. A snake has it's own defense against mites which is to soak in it's water bowl thus drowning the mites.

I think if people follow all the basic steps in mite eradication the exposure to TOD on the part of the snake can be minimised. If each attempt to eradicate mites is followed through to completion then the potential for genetically passed tolerance to TOD is removed.

People have said this with every erradication attempt known to man. Inevitably an egg or mite will survive and pass on resistance. Hence why we have a synthetic pesticide industry. For the chemical to remain effective resistance issues need to be understood. Even in Agriculture the days of calender or preventitive spraying is over. IPM and pesticide group rotations are used to minimise resistance build up.

Insects can become resistant in a relatively short period of time as because of the many generations they have anually.

My argument is against the use of it as the only treatment and the use of it as a preventitive. You never should spray if the problem isn't there. If you cocentrate your efforts on cultural control such as enclosure design (making habitat unsuitable for mite reproduction), cleaning and quarantine then the need for spraying will be only in an emergency.

[hugsta]

Predatory mites work well from what I have heard. They are still being trialled at the moment and they are very expensive. They would be ideal for outdoor pits that are infested with mites. They kill the mites and the eggs.

TOD is still the most readily available, user friendly mite spray on the market and it works very effectively. It is certainly not something you should use regularly, it should only be used if you have mites. You don't spray flyspray around the house if there are no flies or spiders around.

[Hix]

Originally Posted by hazzard

Whilst "TOD" has low mammalian toxicity, continual use of such as a residual leads to a cumulative effect. Hence why today they no longer spray it in Cabin Crew areas because of continual exposure to staff and related pesticide illnesses.

I'd be interested to know where you got that information from, as aircraft coming into Australia are still treated with insecticides.

Most airlines, like Qantas, have a residual spray pumped throgh the plane once every three months and this coats every surface in the aircraft. So when you board, you are sitting in the pesticide for the entire journey.

Some airlines don't use residuals yet. When an Air Canada or Hawaiian Air flight arrives, Quarantine still walk down the aisles spraying, and the cargo holds are bombed with TOD's big brother "One Shot".



Hix

[hazzard]

Yes people do, it's called surface spray! The predators are not that expensive considering the amount of area you can cover with them. They like a humid environment making them suitable for outdoor enclosures. The also work great with substrates such as breeders choice and aspen or cyprus mulch. Keep plenty of water in the enclosures and they do wonders.

[hazzard]

[Most airlines, like Qantas, have a residual spray pumped throgh the plane once every three months and this coats every surface in the aircraft. So when you board, you are sitting in the pesticide for the entire journey.

This is different than spraying the cabin crew area every flight and having them breathe it daily, hence why they do it this way.

As where I got the information, I work in the pesticide research industry and am involved with the research on top of descent for reptiles and for it's impacts on people (safe application strategies).

If you do a google search you will see these are the same reccomendations that the USA researchers have suggested for their airline industry. Many workers have suffered from ill effects of continual use of synthetic pyrethroids such as pemerthrin.

[hazzard]

inhaling and being in dermal cotact with residue has vastly different effects.

[hazzard]

I'm definitely not saying not to use it, yes it is the safest chemical available. But we must be mindful of how we use it and when as so the usage is low risk and the chemical remains effective. It's called IPM the strategies used by some agriculture over the past 10 years.

[hugsta]

Originally Posted by hazzard

Yes people do, it's called surface spray! The predators are not that expensive considering the amount of area you can cover with them. They like a humid environment making them suitable for outdoor enclosures. The also work great with substrates such as breeders choice and aspen or cyprus mulch. Keep plenty of water in the enclosures and they do wonders.

I was just refering to normal flyspray, not surface spray. They are expensive if you only have a couple of animals compared to a $25 can of TOD which can do a lot of enclosures. The mites would definately be the way to go in an outdoor pit though.

[Inkslinger]

I use Ivomevc Have found this much better than TOD