Continuation: Exporting Reptiles From Australia

[nathancl]

For all I know they only ever had 5 indigenous species. A higher number of introduced species does not necessarily mean the ecological impact is greater.
Considering we have one of, if not the highest extinction rate in the world at the moment, I'd say we have a problem.

and most of these extinctions are a result of feral pests ie fox's and cats, aswell as habitat destruction. why add more potential predators into the mix?

[Elapidae1]

We shouldn't, I never said we should

[junglepython2]

All the diseases are already here,

How could you or anyone for that matter know that to be the true??

[gillsy]

Toads are here, why try and stop them.

[cleobhp]

Ahhh. The old we can have exoitic birds and fish arugement...
I'd much rather ban exoitic fish and birds.
That would be a step in the right direction in my view.

The gov are looking at banning 95% of fish imports, the aquarium industry is worth 400 million a year, and if it goes ahead then not only will ppl lose their jobs but shops will shut down, as with a lot of pet shops fish is their biggest sellers, not only fish only shops but a lot of shops that stock everything.

[gillsy]

Yeah as I stated in the post after that one, $350 million a year, they wont ban all fish. They do a revaluation every 6 or so months in NSW, and add fish to the list.

But I don't think all fish will ever be band, there is too many jobs and existing industries at stake.

[spongebob]

Gee you guys must be bored tonight. 4 pages in less than 7 hours on a really old chestnut!

[cleobhp]

Yeah as I stated in the post after that one, $350 million a year, they wont ban all fish. They do a revaluation every 6 or so months in NSW, and add fish to the list.

But I don't think all fish will ever be band, there is too many jobs and existing industries at stake.

Umm think again mate, that's what they are looking at doing, I know a guy in NSW, who is representing us, ie the aquarium hobby and he has told us that is what they are trying to do, he actually got banned from attending these gov meetings because that is what they want to do and he is fighting them, on our behalf. I already know of importers who are ready to shut up shop and go back to their other jobs. The gov don't care how many jobs will be lost.

[seanjbkorbett]

~ My signature speaks for itself!!!!..I have had these discussions so many times!!...I just dont know how they could justify banning ALL exotic reptiles for something a "amphibian" or "mammal" did..Last time i checked you can still buy exotic amphibians..such as a Axolotl..which would do just as much damage as a Panther Chameleon or leopard tortoise if ever escaped.....Non!...And even worse,Imagine If people started letting go their Oscars or Flower horns into our waterways..yet..we can still buy these fish...Cats,rats and some species of birds all have proof of destroying our environment...yet..we can still buy them.. ....The laws are a joke!..Government scam..If people want to keep native reptiles..they have to pay money to keep reptiles,regulary (i understand the permit system,but why do we have to PAY for our passion or for a permit) ...and if we want to keep exotics..then we have to pay the fine of 100 000 dollars or up to 15 years in prison..and there have been heaps of people fined over these years from this..but not ONE imprisonment..of coarse,u cant make money off someone going to prison...

[baggins]

permits to keep reptiles is an absolute joke.

no permit required to keep cats, dogs, birds, fish. or have children for that matter!

a leopard tortoise or sulcata tortoise could really wreak havoc on the environment. just imagine, an escaped tortoise eating the neighbour's dandelions. oh the horror!!

[Sock Puppet]

permits to keep reptiles is an absolute joke.
no permit required to keep cats, dogs, birds, fish. or have children for that matter!

Actually in NSW there are far more native birds that require an animal keepers licence (AKL) than exempt species that require no licence

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/re...peciesList.pdf

just imagine, an escaped tortoise eating the neighbour's dandelions. oh the horror!!

My neighbours seem quite fond of their dandelion garden, they never seem to mow it anyway. A tortoise would get big & fat in that lot.

[dpedwards08]

The particular specimens that I am referring to were not smuggled out of Australia and into the United States, which is often the case with most Australian reptiles that have ended up in collections around the world. There is a way to export legally, but only for non-commercial reasons. I have the permits and fees on file on my computer! Is there anyone here that was alive and keeping reptiles before Australia closed it's boarders to import/export back in the 1970's? Would it be possible that certain species were exported legally back in those years and continued on with breeding somewhere else in the world? It is true that there are a lot of Australian reptiles being produced here in large numbers, but what about tiger snakes, inland taipans, central ranges taipan, coastal taipans, eastern browns, western browns, red belly black snakes, collette's black snakes, and all of the other Australian elapids that many of us have wanted to keep in our collections?

gillsy: What is there to disagree with? I simply made a suggestion, a new idea. You mentioned that you are not allowed to commercially breed reptles in NSW. That is why I suggested that groups of herpers get together to help change those laws. Here in the USA, we have a group called USARK. They just fought a python ban and won!

reptillife: If you don't believe that reptiles are being taken from the wild in tremendous numbers in Australia right now by collectors, than you aren't being very realistic. Australia is the reptile mecca of the world. There are probably hundreds of foreigners that travel to Australia every year just to collect reptiles to smuggle them out.

steve1: There isn't really a "need" in a true sense of the word. I was told several months ago by a local Australian herpetologist, that Australia is going through rough economic times, as is the case in the USA. The reptile trade alone could fix that! Ok not really, but it could certainly help. Any time a company makes their business international, it's usually because they are going to make more money and I believe that if you started breeding reptiles in captivity for commercial export than Australia as a nation would see prosperous times (not implying that you don't already).

gillsy: Again, how would "EXPORTING" captive born reptiles have any negative effect on Australia's ecosystem, wild populations, quarantine, disease control, etc? Australia has nothing to lose by doing this. They have everything to gain. It's not "all" about money, but money has a lot to do with it. Serious profits could be made. It might put smugglers out of business or it might put them in business, but I can tell you one thing for sure...the smugglers will be there anyways!

Forget about importing exotics into Australia. Now let's go back to my original point which is EXPORT. As far as exporting is concerned with Australia's wildlife, it wouldn't do any damage. It's a simple equation. Breed snakes+Export snakes=money. This post has taken a huge twist from my original first post. (Yes I started this post). You got into a heated debate about exotic animals wreaking havoc on your wildlife like it's a new thing. That happens in every country in the world. You already have introduced species and animals are still coming in whether its legal or not. Why not legalize the commercial export of reptiles and start breeding reptiles to make money and export them?

[gillsy]

gillsy: What is there to disagree with? I simply made a suggestion, a new idea.You mentioned that you are not allowed to commercially breed reptles in NSW.That is why I suggested that groups of herpers get together to help changethose laws. Here in the USA, we have a group called USARK. They just fought apython ban and won!

Most of us don't want reptiles in pet shops, as it's just another way forprices to be so high it puts people off, plus the care that pet shops provide to animals is alot of the time pathetic. There is a push to remove all animalsfrom petshops, and just sell products.

If you don't believe that reptiles are being taken from the wild in tremendousnumbers in Australia right now by collectors, than you aren't being veryrealistic. Australia is the reptile mecca of the world. There are probablyhundreds of foreigners that travel to Australia every year just to collectreptiles to smuggle them out.

So what you are saying is let them continue todo this, but allow legal export, so we’ll get every tom dick and harry trying to export poached animals legally.

steve1: There isn't really a "need" in a true sense of the word. Iwas told several months ago by a local Australian herpetologist, that Australiais going through rough economic times, as is the case in the USA. The reptiletrade alone could fix that! Ok not really, but it could certainly help. Any timea company makes their business international, it's usually because they aregoing to make more money and I believe that if you started breeding reptiles incaptivity for commercial export than Australia as a nation would see prosperoustimes (not implying that you don't already).

We are not experiencing tough economic times, we are the only country that didn’t experience a recession during the GFC, have you looked at how strong our dollar is, it’s higher than yours. Exporting a few reptiles won’t touch the bottom line of our economy

gillsy: Again, how would "EXPORTING" captive born reptiles haveany negative effect on Australia's ecosystem, wild populations, quarantine,disease control, etc? Australia has nothing to lose by doing this. They haveeverything to gain. It's not "all" about money, but money has a lotto do with it. Serious profits could be made. It might put smugglers out ofbusiness or it might put them in business, but I can tell you one thing forsure...the smugglers will be there anyways!

You don’t get it, you will have a few that are captive bred. But currently there are problems with wild caught animals in captivity, people going to poach animals and selling them in our domestic reptile market, the problem will be highly exacerbated because they will have another legal avenue of disposal, and a lot higher profit.

Now on a final note, I would like the Americans to finally stop telling other countries what will be best for them. You have no idea how bad the poaching trade is already, our economy, our already endangered reptile populations. You guys kill 1000’s of rattle snakes a year,now that’s something to be proud of.

[longqi]

Most people from overseas do not understand how finely balanced Australias ecology is
There are several localities where 4 fit guys could virtually wipe out a local species in three months

IF it could be guaranteed that only captive bred specimens were exported this could work
But that guarantee is impossible to enforce

One large reptile breeder in Indonesia cannot breed chondros for a fairly simple reason
I offered to redesign a few things for him
His reply was 'It is easier for us to just buy hatchlings from Papuan collectors and say we bred them"
All of those end up in europe
Exactly the same thing could happen in Australia

[Waterrat]

Longqi, I don't think you can compare Indonesia to Australia as far as poaching goes. First of all, labor is not as cheap over hear and collectors would be demanding much more than they do for example on Biak Island. With the price of diesel (A$1.53- / litre), it IS cheaper to breed than collect from the wild. Secondly, the prices for most reptiles are much higher here than in Indonesia and the European trading would quickly come to a grinding hold if they had to pay our prices for reptiles. Basically, Indonesia is a cheap world and Australia is an expensive one. JMO

[SIZE=3]But currently there are problems with wild caught animals in captivity, people going to poach animals and selling them in our domestic reptile market, [/FONT][/QUOTE]

Really? Some poaching has been going on since primordial ooze and some will go on no matter what steps are being taken. But it's a drop in the ocean, I wouldn't say "currently there are problems".