Dead Baby Geckos & Pythons

[VERDI]

I think Spasticus is spot on
Its probably too much moisture
the eggs should be slightly sunken-in at full term
if they are still swollen with excess moisture then the full term bubs drown,
so try reducing substrate moisture,
or letting the substrate dry out before the expected hatch date
or pipping the eggs just before the expected hatch date

[Pinkenbah]

I wrote this about python eggs a number of years ago... I hope you have time to read it.

For some people the ability to breed their snakes is often a measure of success. The achievement has commenced with the purchase of a compatible pair, perhaps as newly emerged juveniles and raising them to a breeding size. With a bit of research you learn how to theoretically breed snakes and decide to put your expertise to the practice. After a cooling period, the snakes are introduced to each other and copulation may, or may not, be observed. Finally you see the female to be somewhat swollen and come to the conclusion that she is gravid. One evening, after counting the days down, you discover the fruits of your labour; a mass of white eggs sitting proudly in front of you.

After congratulating yourself and finally seeing an ambition come to triumph, you go on to incubate the eggs. What comes next seems like a nightmare, your breeding success is spoiled by the death of the eggs, slowly and one by one they die. Something went horribly wrong, and almost defeated, you retrace your egg management technique and method of incubation. First I candled the eggs to check the fertility, then I mixed the vermiculite and water to the correct ratio, double checked the temperature in the incubator and the incubation medium and come to the conclusion I had done everything right. I regularly inspected the eggs, taking off the lid, but still they died.

Alternatively the eggs may appear quite okay right through the incubation period, and you tended to observe the eggs more regularly around the due date. One day you notice a slit in an egg, you may slit the other eggs or you simply wait for a natural hatching. Day by day time gets away and some of the eggs appear to be deteriorating, the eggs are now well and truly overdue, and you decide to carefully slit them open and inspect the young. The eggs contain fully developed snakes, however the majority are dead. These scenarios happens more than we like to admit, but the question remains, what is the probable cause of the death in the eggs and developing snakes?

These scenarios and problems I put to Simon Kortlang, past secretary for the Victorian Herpetological Society and reptile keeper for thirty years. Simon’s knowledge on breeding and husbandry is outstanding, he immediately recognised the dilemma, revealed the probable cause and came up with a solution to fix the problem. It was simply a lack of oxygen, let me explain.....

The embryo inside the egg will develop into a tiny replica of its parent during the incubation period. As soon as the snake slits the egg it takes its first breath and proceeds to leave the egg and enter the world. However, before the snake has even hatched, it has been breathing, or respiring, through the egg shell. Because a developing embryo is not readily observed to breathe, it is difficult to imagine an egg that actually respires, therefore, the oxygen intake is often overlooked during incubation. The egg shell is a permeable membrane that allows water and oxygen (including air and other gases) to pass through it, so during incubation we must monitor the humidity, oxygen level and temperature for a successful hatch rate.

Having the correct ratio of vermiculite and water is maintained by placing the eggs in a sealed container, thereby ruling out the possibility of losing moisture to evaporation. A sealed container does not allow oxygen to become readily available to the embryo, and as the embryo develops it in turn requires more oxygen, hence some viable eggs dying late in incubation by anoxia (deficiency of oxygen). Whereas providing ventilation allows evaporation of water and if the vermiculite becomes too dry, it may extract moisture from the egg, thus also causing problems to the developing embryo unless the humidity level is correctly monitored.

Using a sealed container is the incubation method used for many breeders, so what do they do to get the hatching success? Well it is a relatively simple process of inspecting the eggs on a regular basis by taking the lid off the container, this will not adversely affect moisture loss. Now we must remember that the developing embryo uses oxygen, which is absorbed through the egg, and as a by-product, carbon dioxide is given off. Carbon dioxide settles around the egg, so when you take the lid off the container, the carbon dioxide remains thus risking anoxia. This is where it is important to use the lid, or some other flat object, to fan the eggs and literally blow the carbon dioxide away and out of the container, thus replacing the air space with fresh oxygen.

This inspection process only takes a few seconds to do, however it will need to be done twice a week for a satisfactory egg management and hatch rate. The replacement of carbon dioxide with oxygen is a simple common sense practice that is often overlooked by breeders. Now we can begin to measure our success by our breeding and hatching ability.

[Gecko :)]

Thank you everyone for your replies

Dr Nick,
Temps were 28-29.
I know 75 days isnt too long, but I could tell it wasnt right as it was sunken in and going mouldy, otherwise I would have left it longer, It was soooo sad to see a beautiful little baby Asper dead in the egg! I really hope I have more luck next season, as I have seperated them now cause I dont want to stress her out to much in the first year.,. Good luck with your eggies, keep us updated on how they go

Misty,
Normal incubation for Asper as I under stand can be anywhere from 65-85 days, .it depends who you talk to.

Hey Spart!!!
My mix for Asper is 40/60 drier, and Levis 50/50, as for the coastals not to sure of their mix as my partner looks after the Python side of things.
What mixes do you use?
Oh, so the poor buggers probably drowned,... ohhhh thats terrible!!!


Tarzan, Interesting to hear your theories on incubation temps,. I have never experimentted with temps, I just stick to what im told to do, and I cant even get that right
Good luck breeding your Amyae,. they are such gorgeous little things, I love the Amyae & Asper, .

Hey Verdi what do you mean pipping?

Wow Pink, thanks for all the info, very interesting, I ll print a copy out for my partner,.

Thanks again everyone for all the info,. just wondering what mixes & temps everyone reccomends , so I can try to avoid it happening again! any tips would be much appreciated, I would like to learn from my mistakes and hope it doesnt hapen again.

[lynfrog]

the other interesting variable in the O2/CO2 equation is that the size of the container , and therefore the amount of air inside it, in relation to the egg mass , is important.

ie 2 small eggs in a 2 litre container will probablly have heaps of available o2. However, 15 beardie eggs in the same size container will be much more demanding of the o2 available, and more prone to co2 build-up, especially towards the end. I know from years of chicken incubation that pipping ( first slit or crack in egg) and hatching is a peak o2 requirement time.

[VERDI]

I am sorry about the typo Sparticus
must be a dyslexia relaps

[sparticus]

one thing with vermiculite is that if you leave it sitting around in an open bag exposed to the air it will actually absorb moisture from the atmosphere just sitting there.So if you open a bag of it,re seal it well or put it in an air tight container.Otherwise even though you are making it 60/40 you might have more moisture content then you think,because of this happening.I use perlite mixed at 60/40 for everything i incubate,thats 60 perlite to 40 water.Cut a hole in the top of a chinese container lid.Fill the container halfway with the already made up mix,put cling wrap over it and then put a rubberband aorund it to seal it.The clingwrap actually allows gas exchange,but will not let the moisture out.Then put the lid on and the whole you cut makes a nice window for veiwing as well as gas exchange.Incubate at 29 thats a good safe temp.I dont ever air it or open it to let out excess moisture and have no dramas.This is for the geckos.Although i do my snakes the same but in bigger containers and incubate them at 31.5.If a gecko egg starts to collapse,then somethings not right.Snake eggs do collapse as the incubation period goes on.

[sparticus]

LOL..Dont Worry VERDI i have been called worse..lolll