Please Explain Mr Stone

[Sdaji]

There was a thread on this topic a year or two ago. It was quite possibly the most ridiculous thread the site has ever seen (and that's really saying something! ). I don't think many people understand the heritability of behaviour well at all, and due to what happened last time, I'm not even going to try to throw my 2c in, other than to say that APS is probably not the best place to be discussing the topic. The last thread proved that someone describing obvious facts is no match for a swarm of people convinced of nonsense.

[boa]

[PilbaraPythons]

Conclusions that can be considered fact are not always fact because they were subject to an experiment, e.g we know that 2 + 2 = 4 without having to count out bananas.
When you are talking about reptile placidness or temperament change between first generation and 2nd with no selective breeding involved however, this can only be evaluated by practical experiment and a quantified way of comparing that temperament.
I simply ask the question, has he done such an experiment and if so please enlighten with some details to cross examine.

As Mr Stone has previously publicly stated, that there have been a number of wild caught snakes exported from W.A and their first generation captive bred offspring are more problematic than 2nd generation etc, then it would be logical to assume that he either, had wild caught W.A snakes in such an experiment himself or knows of someone else that have used these reptiles in such an experiment. As we clearly know what species have been exported and had captive breed offspring off of most, we know his claim is flawed and hence the questions.
Those that bleat that this subject is done to death then you have the choice to never view this thread again. I am betting you still do.

Cheers Dave

[chilli]

dave, you seem to think everything Dr Stone writes or says is a sly shot at you that you require him to justify. he just states what he thinks and that can be formed from observations, anecdotes etc without the necessity for scientific evaluations. don't read his articles with the view that he's having a shot at you, cause i'm sure he doesn't give you a thought when he's writing them

cheers, got any 'pinstripe' stimmies

[flavirufus]

I have to agree with Chilli, Dave you seem to take everything Simon says or writes so personally. The basis of this whole debate is whether captive bred animals are better captives than wild caught animals. Every experienced keeper in the world knows that, on average, captive bred animals are far superior. However, this fact doesn't mean there isn't a reason to take from the wild, doesn't mean that many wild caught snakes can't make good captives, and doesn't mean that licenced wild collectors are evil people. Just relax, let go of the jealousy, and be comfortable with the fact that you believe you're going about your herping career the right way.
Regards,
Matt

[ad]

I disagree,
If simon stone is an expert writing articles in Australian Reptile Mags,
He should clarify his statements if questioned - if he is basing them on scientific study let us know.

The question is in regards to 1st generation hatchies v multi generation hatchies, I cannot see any differences between the animals I have bred. They don't get any friendlier or more aggressive the more generations I have bred, but I am a comparitive newcomer,

What science has Simon applied to his statements is all Dave is asking, and a few more breeders would like the wealth of Simon's experience to elaborate.
Cheers
Adam

[salebrosus]

Originally Posted by ad

I disagree,
If simon stone is an expert writing articles in Australian Reptile Mags,
He should clarify his statements if questioned - if he is basing them on scientific study let us know.

The question is in regards to 1st generation hatchies v multi generation hatchies, I cannot see any differences between the animals I have bred. They don't get any friendlier or more aggressive the more generations I have bred, but I am a comparitive newcomer,

What science has Simon applied to his statements is all Dave is asking, and a few more breeders would like the wealth of Simon's experience to elaborate.
Cheers
Adam

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[PilbaraPythons]

I actually agree with most of what he has said about wild caught snakes. And many points are proven and valid. Let’s keep this clear though, I am simply asking a question that heaps of well known herpers in this country would like an answer to in regards to 1st generation compared to 2nd generation, nothing else, (yet ).

The importance of accountability from un proven or unsupported claims that influence people (especially new keepers) in a popular reptile magazine however, erodes the very value of such a publication. That is only one part of what is wrong here.

To add fuel to the motivation of this thread ( and to keep this honest ) I must mention that I have been rung up by several people and informed that Mr Stone was very annoyed (and that word is being polite) with me over questioning his integrity in a similar thread a while back Furthermore I was also told that his up and coming article was an indirect dig at me because of it. I would sincerely like to think that this is not true as this would be disappointing (not to mention unethical) and to be fair to Simon I should not condemn him on rumor, especially as I haven’t yet ever read the alleged article.

And Flavirufus
If you think I am the jealous type, then you clearly don’t know me very well at all and I can tell you that you are way off the mark. I do admire his marketing skills however.
It is funny though how often when somebody takes somebody to task, the cop out is always “Oh he must be jealous”. Of course it wouldn’t have anything to do with me and others getting clarification about his statement which could clearly effect peoples perception of our own 1st generation captive bred progeny would it now?

Taking your tact though, it could be also alleged that Mr Stone is the one who is jealous of the huge amounts of captive bred woma’s from easily obtained wild caught specimens that we and others are pumping out which has clearly had a huge impact on bringing down prices of a species he no doubt has done financially well on over the years. Rather than being jealous I prefer to think that as a businessman he would just be plain livid which is totally understandable, as if the boot was on the other foot, I would be also.

Cheers Dave

[flavirufus]

Originally Posted by ad

He should clarify his statements if questioned - if he is basing them on scientific study let us know.

Hi Adam,

Of course he's not basing it on a scientific study! If we had to carry out a scientific study before we shared our thoughts on anything about reptile keeping, we'd be living in near complete ignorance. No one's asking Dave to provide scientific evidence for any of his claims regarding wild caught animals and nor should we either.

There are however some wonderful studies on selective breeding (no, they're not on reptiles, yes, they are applicable to reptiles) that clearly demonstartive that behavioural characteristics can be selected for. Therefore, there is a scientific basis for Simon's claims. I haven't seen the '1st generation hatchies v multi generation hatchies' staement other than in these threads, but this would still hold true if selective pressure have been applied (either by passive or active selection).

It's possible Simon will be elaborating on his thoughts in future magazine articles. Given the debate seems to have arisen because of past articles, that seems like an appropriate forum.

Regards,
Matt

[Slateman]

Originally Posted by PilbaraPythons

I have no idea whether he will reply or not.
The challenge has been made, it is now up to him to explain, if he wants to of course.

Cheers Dave

Hmm. I don't see why he should.
Most of this stuff was said when there was discussion about his article in Australian Magazine few months ago.

I don't think that he is going to slander other herpetologists in public forum in so call challenge.

[boa]

I tend to agree, there is no real reason for him to explain his opinion. He has bred many 100's of snakes and is no doubt basing his findings on what he has observed over the years.
People who want to buy wild caught will do so and the same applies to those who favour captive bred and many who have no preference either way.

[TrueBlue]

But boa the question asked was not about wild caught animals, it was about 1st generation captive bred against 2nd, 3rd etc.
Which every experianced herper that i know of will tell you there is no difference in keeping or temperament wise.
Infact imo with first generation you still have a lot of genetic diversity to work with, which is excitting stuff as any thing may pop up.
Once the animals have been breed for 3 or so generations pretty much all that is lost and only the same boring forms will always appear.
So imo 1st generation captive bred is far more excitting to work with and in that sence, dear i say, superior to 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.

[boa]

Rob, I'm not quite sure what you are saying. You said this in relation to hypo coastals "but these are the real deal and have taken a bit off selective breeding to produce.
The next couple of generations will see some real screemers pop out for sure."
Doesn't what you just said completely contradict this ? Surely the whole point of captive breeding is to do exactly what you said above, through several generations you refine the best points ? If anything exciting has been lost why bother continuing with a line to improve it which is what just about every breeder does ?

[SnakePower]

I agree that these articles have been taken far too personally, when I think the idea behind them is to primarily educate newbies to the hobbie. These articles are stating what many people know is the case, but never say. It goes to reason that a captive bred animal is going to be a better suited captive as it knows no life as a wild animal of the same. Therefore it will eat easier once feeding, not necessarily having to go "hunting" for it's meals etc and same goes with breeding time. A captive bred animal is exactly that a captive bred animal, not a wild one trying to accept it's new life as a captive. While many animals I am sure adjust well to becoming captives, some just don't. It is these basic points/reasons that I think the articles have been trying to get across.

100% with Boa on this! Just about every major breeder selectively breeds to further improve their lines that they work with. Also many top breeders like to quote the no of generations that their animals are captive bred, as it makes them "better animals", Or at least that is what the majority believe. Doc Rock is certainly not the only person that does this. It is done by several breeders that have already contributed to this thread!!
I personaly think captive bred animals are much easier to work with. Having bred both W/C and C/B animals, I certainly prefer the C/B animals when I can work with them. Of course C/B is not always available from new lines or localities and this is when I choose to work with W/C.

But that is not the purpose of this thread is it?? The question posed is easily answered by it'self without needing Doc Rock to get involved, and prove his statements with scientific evidence! It is just common sense! Of course there are always exceptions to these generalisations, but in the most part they are true. And I believe the whole purpose of his articles in the Reptiles Aust. mag is aimed at helping educate people and also in a large part aimed at newbies to the hobbie as they are not always aware of some of these things that the more experienced herpers would already know from their own experiences!

[TrueBlue]

snakepower, like boa you are refering to wild caught, the question Dave asked is to do with 1st generation captive bred v mulit-generation captive bred.

boa, but they are still only 1st generation not multi generation, it was just a matter of sourcing the right animals to start with. These have been put on the back burner the last few years because of the many animals that ive been breeding for a few other people.