Please Explain Mr Stone

[boa]

Rob, are you saying those hypos are first generation ? I thought they were descended from legally caught Sunshine Coast animals from years ago ? If they are first generation then I apologise for my error. The fact remains that by saying "The next couple of generations will see some real screemers pop out for sure" you are implying at least that they will be improving as you would expect from selective breeding.
Thanks

[TrueBlue]

thats correct boa, thats why first generation imo are much better as you still have more genetic diversity, once they become 3rd gen or more a lot of the thrill is lost because you pretty much know what they will always look like.
And yes they were sourced from long term captive animals, from a few people that have been in the the game for many many years when you were allowed to collect from the wild.
A couple of the founder animals were so old i werent sure they would even breed, both have since died from what i belive to be old age.

[Gonzo]

I don’t think that it is a good thing for people to blindly accept any statement made as fact. I think that questioning such statements and asking for proof is an intelligent reaction. I believe that if something is written as fact, then the writer should be prepared to back it up with evidence. If someone can’t back up a statement with specific proof or evidence, then it should not be written as though it were a fact. Without proof, it is just their opinion, and should be clearly identified as just that – opinion. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but there is something wrong with passing opinion off as fact.
There is a good example of this type of thing in the "Please explain..." thread. Someone stated, as though it were an indisputable fact, that, “Every experienced keeper in the world knows that, on average, captive bred animals are far superior.” This is an extremely strong statement. “Every experienced keeper in the world”???? Exactly what level of experience do these keepers have? Are there any members of this forum that have this level of experience? Please state the level of experience required.
I’m not saying that the statement isn’t true, as I can't prove this. It’s possible that it is true. Personally, I don't think it is. I disagree and believe that some experienced keepers in the world don’t believe that captive bred animals are far superior. My belief could however be changed if some valid proof were presented.
I don’t think this statement is a fact. I think it is the opinion of someone, who would like to think that the rest of the herping community are like minded, and will agree without question.
However, when presented with statements such as these, some of us would like to see/hear/read the proof – if it exists.

Gonzo

[Miss_Croft]

Here is the original thread on this topic.
Wild Caught debate

From the experience of breeders in the US is that captive breed animals do better in captivity. The breeders have found captive breed reptiles have better temperament, greater egg production and higher hatch rate in incubators.

Reptile keepers also found second generation captive bred animals were better than the first generation and main wild caught animals would waist away (For no apparent reason). Even force feeding failed.

That been said – others have pointed out their personal experience with Australian reptiles – this indicates a few things – how the original reptile was selected (US wild caught animals are normally imported from another country and not selected by an expert), lower stress of transit from wild to captivity (Not packed into crowded crates, holding pens or bags). Or it could be just a bias opinion.

The Australian experience also indicates many of the Australian animals can adapt and breed well in captivity (If not better than many of the domesticated imported pets).

[Pythoninfinite]

You all seem to be trying very hard to make a mountain out of a molehill. There are pros and cons for each - wild caught and captive bred... there will be people who patronise Pilbara Pythons BECAUSE they have wild-caught stuff and there will be people who patronise Southern Cross reptiles BECAUSE they have high quality captive bred stuff.

Soon enough Pilbara Pythons will be reduced to selling captive bred stuff too, when DEC eventually removes taker's licences from their system.

I am certain that worldwide opinion, as far as the "pet" reptile trade is concerned, leans far more towards the belief that captive bred animals make better "pets." This opinion comes from my discussions over the years with breeders worldwide. Dave Barker was, at one stage, line-breeding the larger pythons (reticulated particularly) for improved temperament - because ill tempered giant pythons are very dangerous animals indeed. He felt that calm adults largely produced calm babies.

I don't see anything challenging in what Simon Stone has said, and at the end of the day he was only expressing an opinion. Definitely not deserving of the extremely aggressive bollocking he has received here... I'm sure the Stones have better things to do than try and undermine other businesses.

I have purchased superb animals from the Stones in the past, and I'm sure if Dave had species I was interested in I would buy from him as well (I'm not into Antaresia or Aspidites). My choice - yours as well...

Jamie.

[Slateman]

It’s so dumb. There must 40 tonnes of documents written about the increase in productivity of captive bred animals in the first 1 to 2 generations (mammals, fish, birds, etc). There is not an experienced herp in Australia that does not know the enormous improvement in performance of captive bred animals over wild caught. It’s what changed the hobby in the mid-nineties and made it what it is today.
But again if some people like to think otherwise, they have all the right to do this.

[PilbaraPythons]

Congratulations Slateman your posts seemed have improved overnight. Have you been secretly taking English classes at night school?
I have a question for you though old mate. If friends of mine who have perhaps breed more specimens of wild caught pythons than most in this entire country just happen to not observe any differences worthy of note from 1st to 2nd generation, does this make them inexperienced? Using your previous statement as logic would this be your opinion?

[Slateman]

Originally Posted by PilbaraPythons

Congratulations Slateman your posts seemed have improved overnight. Have you been secretly taking English classes at night school?
I have a question for you though old mate. If friends of mine who have perhaps breed more specimens of wild caught pythons than most in this entire country just happen to not observe any differences worthy of note from 1st to 2nd generation, does this make them inexperienced? Using your previous statement as logic would this be your opinion?

Not interested to argue with you really. I expressed my opinion, nothing wrong with that.
Have a fun.

By the way.
Your attack on my English is totally uncalled for. Some times if post is important to me, I do get help.

I am not making fun of people who don't speak more than one language. Why do you have to make such a insensitive comment?
I speak 7 different languages. English is one I learned later in my life and apology to Pilbara Python for not using my English up to his standard some time.

I will take you on in Czech, German, Russian, Polish, Slovak, Yugoslavian any time.

I will not reply to any of your posts anymore.

I know that you will come with some nice excuse and will say that you did not ment to insult me.
But you did.
I am not interested to have anything to do with you in the future. Don't bother to sent me any personall messages and e-mails. I have no time for you.
Definately not Old mate of yours also. Newer been.

[PilbaraPythons]

Slateman
You need to recognize the difference between a question and an argument.
You chose to put your input into this thread therefore a question back to you was an obvious possibility.

As you have taken my comment on your English so personally and have felt insulted then I obviously need to apologize (even if this may mean nothing to you) So, I am sorry if I offended you.
There is nothing wrong with getting help with a post; it just was so plainly obvious it gave me a chuckle. I am glad though that you at least have made it clear what you think of me, see, honesty I actually do support.