WIRES reptile handling course
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Slateman
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I wish to be able to go one day. Shame that they do not have something closer.
Do they have courses close to Sydney Craig?
Do they have courses close to Sydney Craig?
grahamh
Well-Known Member
I mentioned the other week that I was doing my course (NATF with a few WIRES members thrown in) The course is really good. It's a real buzz tailing and bagging RBBS's and Browns and my confidence level went up heaps. Just being able to see hoe these snakes react on a real hot day and just how fast they really can move is an eye opener and to then go on to bag them really is a confidence boost. Anyone who gets the chance should jump at it. I can see why Pinkie wanted to do it again.
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saikrett
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do you have to be over 18?
Fuscus
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I wanna have a go. I wanna have a go.
Pinkie
Well-Known Member
Yeah you have to be an active member of WIRES or a similar organisation. And over 18.
ackie
Well-Known Member
damn, i hav to wait another 2 1/2 yrs but in the meantime i will do sum snake rescuing practice of my own.
I ran a course last weekend here in Sydney. Yes you do have to be a member of a wildlife organisation or other organisation who's insurance will cover you. The fireys, ambos and police cant do them at the moment because of workers comp.
Its all fun and games for the participants but spare a thought for the poor guy who has to house and feed all those wild vens then drive around the next day releasing. Oh yeah, and watch all those poor snakes being set upon by extremely nervous trainees. They practically jump in the bag afer a couple of goes
Its all fun and games for the participants but spare a thought for the poor guy who has to house and feed all those wild vens then drive around the next day releasing. Oh yeah, and watch all those poor snakes being set upon by extremely nervous trainees. They practically jump in the bag afer a couple of goes
toxinologist
Active Member
Without wanting to put too much of a dampener on everyone's enthusiasm ... attempting to "teach" someone how to handle highly venomous snakes in the short period of time typically allowed by these courses, is not only fraught with immediate danger to the participants, but quite irresponsibly gives people with limited expertise a very false sense of confidence that will eventually get someone killed.
There has already been one instance in north Queensland where a "graduate" of one of these ill-conceived "training courses" - in this case a supposedly mandatory course run by the Queensland Department of Environment - was bitten by a large coastal taipan that he attempted to catch with a 2-foot long pair of tongs.
As someone who has kept and worked with highly venomous snakes for more than 30 years I can assure those of you considering that these courses might qualify you to go out and handle species like the common brown snake (Pseudonaja textilis) that your best interests are not being served by the proponents of these courses. These are extremely dangerous snakes. The common brown snake is resoundingly responsible for the majority of snakebite deaths in this country, and many of the recent deaths have occurred very rapidly. They are not a species that inexperienced individuals should attempt to handle, even with hoopbags, grabsticks or snakehooks.
Having personally suffered the consequences of serious snakebites, and having seen people die from snakebite, I honestly would not wish the experience on my worst enemy.
... my $0.02 ...
There has already been one instance in north Queensland where a "graduate" of one of these ill-conceived "training courses" - in this case a supposedly mandatory course run by the Queensland Department of Environment - was bitten by a large coastal taipan that he attempted to catch with a 2-foot long pair of tongs.
As someone who has kept and worked with highly venomous snakes for more than 30 years I can assure those of you considering that these courses might qualify you to go out and handle species like the common brown snake (Pseudonaja textilis) that your best interests are not being served by the proponents of these courses. These are extremely dangerous snakes. The common brown snake is resoundingly responsible for the majority of snakebite deaths in this country, and many of the recent deaths have occurred very rapidly. They are not a species that inexperienced individuals should attempt to handle, even with hoopbags, grabsticks or snakehooks.
Having personally suffered the consequences of serious snakebites, and having seen people die from snakebite, I honestly would not wish the experience on my worst enemy.
... my $0.02 ...
S
Slateman
Guest
I was thinking about the same think David. One course can not teach people how to deal with tox. Snakes.
But on the other hand, how the people who are interested to learn should start? This courses will give them basic knowledge and what after? If the person who learn that from short course like this is gan hoe personality, we have problem. But majority of people are taking this courses like starting point and i am sure that they realise that they knowledge is limited.
Do you experts in that field know what is next thing to do if you are really interested to get more experiance?
Ps my spell button is not working. You have to read true slateman english now.
But on the other hand, how the people who are interested to learn should start? This courses will give them basic knowledge and what after? If the person who learn that from short course like this is gan hoe personality, we have problem. But majority of people are taking this courses like starting point and i am sure that they realise that they knowledge is limited.
Do you experts in that field know what is next thing to do if you are really interested to get more experiance?
Ps my spell button is not working. You have to read true slateman english now.
toxinologist
Active Member
My personal belief is that someone interested in learning to handle venomous snakes should first of all have robust experience with a wide range of non-venomous snakes, progressing to colubrids like the brown tree snake and then to moderately venomous elapids under supervision.
One of the real problems with herpetology is this country is that newbies simply don't have much access to the really experienced people, and many new herpers go out buy a snake, and then have to struggle along by themselves learning basic skills and repeating the mistakes that others could have helped them avoid. Solving that problem is not easy however - we exist in a climate of mutual suspicion, petty jealousy and competition that stymies these interactions. I would love to offer an instant solution, but there really isn't one.
The 1-2 day courses currently on offer suffer from the same sort of problem ... you go along pay your money, learn a few "tricks" and then away you go ... out on your own again, left to learn from hard mistakes.
I believe there is a real need for a formally instituted longer course - perhaps through a TAFE college - over a period of 6 to 12 months in which students are taken through structured classes covering all aspects of reptile husbandry, basic veterinarin requirments, animal behaviour, reproductive biology, housing, licensing, and handling. Such a course would be well attended, and would produce far better keepers. There simply are too many people out on their own at the moment without even the most rudimentary knowledge ... I actually get 2 or 3 emails a month asking "my snake has blue eyes and won't eat - what's wrong with it" and this really shows that people are getting into the hobby without having done even the most basic research first.
The demand for training is definately there!
I would suggest that some of the experienced keepers in one of the capital cities should perhaps consider developing a course of this nature.
Cheers
David
One of the real problems with herpetology is this country is that newbies simply don't have much access to the really experienced people, and many new herpers go out buy a snake, and then have to struggle along by themselves learning basic skills and repeating the mistakes that others could have helped them avoid. Solving that problem is not easy however - we exist in a climate of mutual suspicion, petty jealousy and competition that stymies these interactions. I would love to offer an instant solution, but there really isn't one.
The 1-2 day courses currently on offer suffer from the same sort of problem ... you go along pay your money, learn a few "tricks" and then away you go ... out on your own again, left to learn from hard mistakes.
I believe there is a real need for a formally instituted longer course - perhaps through a TAFE college - over a period of 6 to 12 months in which students are taken through structured classes covering all aspects of reptile husbandry, basic veterinarin requirments, animal behaviour, reproductive biology, housing, licensing, and handling. Such a course would be well attended, and would produce far better keepers. There simply are too many people out on their own at the moment without even the most rudimentary knowledge ... I actually get 2 or 3 emails a month asking "my snake has blue eyes and won't eat - what's wrong with it" and this really shows that people are getting into the hobby without having done even the most basic research first.
The demand for training is definately there!
I would suggest that some of the experienced keepers in one of the capital cities should perhaps consider developing a course of this nature.
Cheers
David
S
Slateman
Guest
That would be great David. But i am sure that we will not find anybody to get involved in this activity. Lot of problems with insurance, permits and red tape garb.
An if somebody would be willing to go throu all this, Some other person in herp community who think that he is smarter, will attack and stab from back.
People like me who like to moove on, have to get wires course and battle on their own. That is why i am glad for that wires course to be possible, and i can get at least some experiance.
If somebody in the Sydney can give me better and safe alternative, I would grab it happily.
An if somebody would be willing to go throu all this, Some other person in herp community who think that he is smarter, will attack and stab from back.
People like me who like to moove on, have to get wires course and battle on their own. That is why i am glad for that wires course to be possible, and i can get at least some experiance.
If somebody in the Sydney can give me better and safe alternative, I would grab it happily.
Lunar_Psycho
Active Member
Sorry to get a little off topic, but in relation to Toxinologist`s statement of people getting into herps too soon without enough information, I have to agree. I myself only really started learning about herps late last year, and in February picked up an 8 mnth old carpet python, followed by two juvi Eastern Water Dragons in October. I thought I knew enough information beforehand, but theres just so many unreliable sources out there that seem to look right. I posted a topic asking if its right to feed calcium powder to juvi lizards (which I now know was an obvious yes), which to many people would sound like a given. When the actaul breeder tells you "no, its bad for them", and even a few books do, it makes becoming a good herper all the more difficult. I`d love for an experienced herper to give a course, but the costs and legal aspects seem to make it almost impossible. This forum seems to be one of the best places for reliable informetion, as so many of you have kept wide varieties of herps for a long time, and as such know how to care for them.
So if I or any other newbies post anything that makes you think "They really haven`t looked into this", just remember our hearts are in the right place and where just trying to learn from the best available "resources".
Sorry again for having gone off subject, but I didn`t think this deserved a new post.
Jay
So if I or any other newbies post anything that makes you think "They really haven`t looked into this", just remember our hearts are in the right place and where just trying to learn from the best available "resources".
Sorry again for having gone off subject, but I didn`t think this deserved a new post.
Jay
Pinkie
Well-Known Member
I don't agree with you David.
I have done 2 WIRES reptile handler's courses over the past 3-4 years and I will continue to go back and do them every year for the next 50 years. However, I am not 100% confident and wont ever be 100% confident when I go out on a snake or reptile rescue because I never know what I'm going to be dealing with.
To me having the hands-on experience in a controlled situation with experienced handlers present is a lot better than trying it yourself at home. I would much rather be spotted by 3-4 experienced handlers than will not only look out for me but give me tips and guidance all the way.
You can say a "graduate" from a Qld course or whatever got bitten, but then you yourself say you have been bitten. I also know and know of many experienced herpetologists and handlers who have been bitten. Being bitten is part of it when you deal with venomous snakes, it is to be expected.
For you to call all reptile handling courses "ill conceived" and "irresponsible" I find a bit offensive as I'm sure would the experienced handlers who run the course. We are taught first aid, identification and veterinary aspects. We begin with lizards and go to pythons/colubrid and then elapids. The course is well run and has been running for years. Irresponsible would be not to run the course and have members from such organisations going out on snake rescues and having no experience whatsoever.
The people who run the course are extrememly experienced in the handling of venomous snakes, some have been doing it for 40 years or so, some are even well-known herpetologists. I have great respect these trainers who have taught me more about reptiles than my years at university studying the subject.
I think they do a wonderful job and hope they continue to do so.
I have done 2 WIRES reptile handler's courses over the past 3-4 years and I will continue to go back and do them every year for the next 50 years. However, I am not 100% confident and wont ever be 100% confident when I go out on a snake or reptile rescue because I never know what I'm going to be dealing with.
To me having the hands-on experience in a controlled situation with experienced handlers present is a lot better than trying it yourself at home. I would much rather be spotted by 3-4 experienced handlers than will not only look out for me but give me tips and guidance all the way.
You can say a "graduate" from a Qld course or whatever got bitten, but then you yourself say you have been bitten. I also know and know of many experienced herpetologists and handlers who have been bitten. Being bitten is part of it when you deal with venomous snakes, it is to be expected.
For you to call all reptile handling courses "ill conceived" and "irresponsible" I find a bit offensive as I'm sure would the experienced handlers who run the course. We are taught first aid, identification and veterinary aspects. We begin with lizards and go to pythons/colubrid and then elapids. The course is well run and has been running for years. Irresponsible would be not to run the course and have members from such organisations going out on snake rescues and having no experience whatsoever.
The people who run the course are extrememly experienced in the handling of venomous snakes, some have been doing it for 40 years or so, some are even well-known herpetologists. I have great respect these trainers who have taught me more about reptiles than my years at university studying the subject.
I think they do a wonderful job and hope they continue to do so.
Robert
Well-Known Member
I think it is a good idea.As you say pinkie you are being spotted by experienced herpers and get some good tips.
I would love to do something like that course as i would love to do rescue's.
Also i think i doesn't matter who you are and how good you are,
you are always at risk of being bitten sometime.It is just in the nature of what we do.
and no matter who you are you are always learning something new.
One day i wish to own a northen death adder or for that matter any death adder,and until that day i will be learning as much as i can about them and doing what is possible(courses etc) to learn as much as i can crame in to my head.
Think it is a good idea to start on colubrids though.
I would love to do something like that course as i would love to do rescue's.
Also i think i doesn't matter who you are and how good you are,
you are always at risk of being bitten sometime.It is just in the nature of what we do.
and no matter who you are you are always learning something new.
One day i wish to own a northen death adder or for that matter any death adder,and until that day i will be learning as much as i can about them and doing what is possible(courses etc) to learn as much as i can crame in to my head.
Think it is a good idea to start on colubrids though.
Pinkie
Well-Known Member
NB: This course is designed for the rescue/relocation of snakes... not for people who want elapids on their recreational licence. :roll:
David, you are under the misapprehention that these courses are venemous handling where in fact the emphasis is on as little handling as possible. the course I ran was for members of a wildlife rescue organisation and the emphasis was on ; because it is in Sydney; eastern brown and redbellies blacksnakes.
Nobody graduates from these courses. There is no pass or fail.
Others in a similar position to yours are quick to denigrate thes ecourses but offer little help especially when there seems to be little or no knowledge of what is entailed. I think pinkie has covered most of the ground that I would have and the computer has crashed twice so my missive is written in a somewhat calmer state than before.
To use the incident of someone being bitten after a course is rather poor coming from someone of your calibre. If stats wrere the go I think that you and others in the herp game would have to hand in youir hooks and go home. Being bitten is a risk but not a death sentence. Forearming and the right knowledge and precautions are big part of the course. The mothods we use include leaving the snake where it is and is the method most commonly used. We do not use tongs and we do not pin. These methods are left to peopele of greater experience.
Sure its about building confidence but its about building the confidence of people who already volunteer their time to perform a public service.
There will be another course in Feb and it is already booked out and it hasnt been advertised.
Ooh I get so mad.
Its like being on teh front line and having Lord Cardigan canter up and tell you how to shoot straight.
Nobody graduates from these courses. There is no pass or fail.
Others in a similar position to yours are quick to denigrate thes ecourses but offer little help especially when there seems to be little or no knowledge of what is entailed. I think pinkie has covered most of the ground that I would have and the computer has crashed twice so my missive is written in a somewhat calmer state than before.
To use the incident of someone being bitten after a course is rather poor coming from someone of your calibre. If stats wrere the go I think that you and others in the herp game would have to hand in youir hooks and go home. Being bitten is a risk but not a death sentence. Forearming and the right knowledge and precautions are big part of the course. The mothods we use include leaving the snake where it is and is the method most commonly used. We do not use tongs and we do not pin. These methods are left to peopele of greater experience.
Sure its about building confidence but its about building the confidence of people who already volunteer their time to perform a public service.
There will be another course in Feb and it is already booked out and it hasnt been advertised.
Ooh I get so mad.
Its like being on teh front line and having Lord Cardigan canter up and tell you how to shoot straight.
toxinologist
Active Member
It is interesting to see so much indignation arise from a post that was intended as a cautionary tale, but other people are welcome to their opinions, just as I am welcome to mine.
But a couple of comments:
1. The Queensland Course is a mandatory course with "passes" and "fails". Getting a damage mitigation permit in Townsville depends on "passing" a course taught by individuals with no qualifications other than a government employee's badge and a sense of authority. The course teachs techniques that are patently dangerous, and I stand by my belief that courses such as this one are extremely irresponsible.
2. Comparing a person who handles thousands of snakes a year, and who has had 2 snakebites requiring antivenom in a 30+ year period, with some poor fool whose whole experience is limited to attendance at the above-mentioned course is no comparison at all.
3. Pinkie confirmed my concerns by stating
4. Adullthud should think carefully about the comment that
5. Another comment by Adullthud also deserves mention:
6. Once again the common brown snake (Pseudonaja textilis) is an extraordinarily dangerous and highly venomous snake that has caused human deaths in a matter of minutes. If you don't know what you are doing - if you are nervous - if you lack confidence - or are brimming over with overconfidence - this snake can and could kill you. Then try telling those who love you that it is
Again ... a further $0.02 ... take them or leave them.
But a couple of comments:
1. The Queensland Course is a mandatory course with "passes" and "fails". Getting a damage mitigation permit in Townsville depends on "passing" a course taught by individuals with no qualifications other than a government employee's badge and a sense of authority. The course teachs techniques that are patently dangerous, and I stand by my belief that courses such as this one are extremely irresponsible.
2. Comparing a person who handles thousands of snakes a year, and who has had 2 snakebites requiring antivenom in a 30+ year period, with some poor fool whose whole experience is limited to attendance at the above-mentioned course is no comparison at all.
3. Pinkie confirmed my concerns by stating
Whether you like it or not this is an abject admission that the courses you have done have failed to adequately equip you to deal with wild venomous snakes in high stress situations. You have done a course and think you can now go and take venomous snake on your own, but the fact is that your nervousness makes you a danger to yourself and to others because there is one simple rule: if you don't know what you are doing, don't do it!
4. Adullthud should think carefully about the comment that
If other experienced herpetologists are expressing the same concerns then there just may be a good reason for that concern don't you think? New herpers are quick to ask more experienced people for advice and assistance, but some are also a little too quick to reject what they don't like to hear :roll:
5. Another comment by Adullthud also deserves mention:
This has to be one of the most foolish things I have heard anyone say in a long time, not because it isn't true (and oh how nice it is that you can toddle off and be bitten in Australia, spend a night in a comfy hospital bed and then go straight back out and try to do it again... :lol: ) but because it displays utter contempt for the potential of these animals to cause both serious injury and death. Once again we have someone who expects that people like myself should give away advice left, right and centre ... and then wants to throw it contemptuously back in my face when I give an opinion they don't want to hear.
6. Once again the common brown snake (Pseudonaja textilis) is an extraordinarily dangerous and highly venomous snake that has caused human deaths in a matter of minutes. If you don't know what you are doing - if you are nervous - if you lack confidence - or are brimming over with overconfidence - this snake can and could kill you. Then try telling those who love you that it is
or that
- both remarks are rubbish! I know many professional herpetologists who have NEVER been bitten, and I personally am far from proud of my own mistakes. Getting bitten is NOT a mandatory requirement, and if you think it is, then you shouldn't have anything to do with venomous snakes in the first place.
Again ... a further $0.02 ... take them or leave them.
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