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Are we now OK with hybrids in our hobby & no longer as concerned about about purity?

  • Yes

    Votes: 67 41.9%
  • No

    Votes: 93 58.1%

  • Total voters
    160
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i prefer the way they have evolved in there natural habitat. i like there natural look and surroundings . im fascinated by it.
 
Some do but most do not Jags and hybrids are not pure bred snakes that Is just creating mongrel snakes
 
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Do many fish or bird breeders have a strong opinion on this subject as well?
Having been a large fish/cichlid breeder i can say that if there is ever a discussion on crossing different species of fish in a community it is highly critised. It is not often done in the open market due to thier being no market for them and also thier being no genetic need. However as with everything there is always an underground market of either illegal or not sort after animals being produced.

The bird scene is another story. As per stated the lutino alex can takes years to get it to where the breeder may be happy with the outcome and that outcome may of seen heaps of offspring disposed of. To what point is the done. The outcome is a much smaller yellow bird which could of been achieved with a pure line.

Cameron
 
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At the end of the day when you are looking for a purchase you know what you want and you know what they look like in nature. If when purchasing you think somethings different than wild colourations ask if its crossbred. Ive seen a lot of photos of pure animals and if you tried to flogg me a cross id know, if the animal is weirdly priced for species named then you know somethings up Buyer beware and check and double check breeder before purchasing. i will never have this problem as i give my snakes away for free so if someone doesnt like my animal i will gladly take it back and give them there money back $0
 
At the end of the day when you are looking for a purchase you know what you want and you know what they look like in nature. If when purchasing you think somethings different than wild colourations ask if its crossbred.
So just because its colouration may be different to that of a wild type specimen means you need to ask the question about its purity?
 
This hobby is primarily focused on the visual appeal of animals be it "pure" or "mixed" at the end of the day the prettier animals sell quicker or for the higher price. Even with locale specific lines there is selection for certain traits, the majority of which are colouration. So are locale specific animals an accurate representation of their wild counterparts, and will they be that way over multiple future generations? Joe Blog who throws a pair together which are the same species (subspecies) just for the 'fun of it' would get blasted by nearly everyone in the hobby for multiple obvious reasons, but it could be argued that the offspring are more representative of the species as they result with an absence from selective pressure from the hobby.

You don't have to search far to find multiple opinions on how "removed" our captive reptiles are from the wild (native fauna), so what relevance do "pure" animals have outside of the label... they have (arguably) no conservation value.

Personally I bought a pair of snakes with the information they were a certain region and from a big name breeder, but I have never seen another of the same species with his name being mentioned. I have questioned the integrity of this pair and am now hesitant to maintain any association of this pair to the claimed breeder. How can most people be without question certain of their animals when it is far too easy for information to be "lost in translation"?

And so people are aware I am a fence sitter for now on this debate :) and I'm not attacking pure lines as it might seem.
 
Having been a large fish/cichlid breeder i can say that if there is ever a discussion on crossing different species of fish in a community it is highly critised. It is not often done in the open market due to thier being no market for them and also thier being no genetic need. However as with everything there is always an underground market of either illegal or not sort after animals being produced.

The bird scene is another story. As per stated the lutino alex can takes years to get it to where the breeder may be happy with the outcome and that outcome may of seen heaps of offspring disposed of. To what point is the done. The outcome is a much smaller yellow bird which could of been achieved with a pure line.

Cameron

I thought there was a good market for hybridised Cichlids, I see them in many pet shops
 
This hobby is primarily focused on the visual appeal of animals be it "pure" or "mixed" at the end of the day the prettier animals sell quicker or for the higher price. Even with locale specific lines there is selection for certain traits, the majority of which are colouration. So are locale specific animals an accurate representation of their wild counterparts, and will they be that way over multiple future generations?


Speak for yourself re the primary focus:), I know of a few, most of whom have been in the hobby alot of years who would beg to differ.

"are local specific animals an accurate representation of their wild counterparts" Years ago, I would have said "yes", but It's getting harder to tell these days, that's part of the problem, for me, at least.

I'm lucky as there's nowhere near as much "milkshaking" with the species I keep (Lacies and Top End Mulgas).
 
Speak for yourself re the primary focus:), I know of a few, most of whom have been in the hobby alot of years who would beg to differ.

"are local specific animals an accurate representation of their wild counterparts" Years ago, I would have said "yes", but It's getting harder to tell these days, that's part of the problem, for me, at least.

I'm lucky as there's nowhere near as much "milkshaking" with the species I keep (Lacies and Top End Mulgas).

Majority of the people in this hobby are newcomers (keeping herps 5 years or less) and imo looks are the primary drawing point of that crowd
 
I own a few here, Mongrel Jags that is. I really like them, thier vibrant colour is magnificent & the few that i have are a real pleasure to own & look after. The nuero think was done to death way over the top & until people really have the experience with them to see what they are really like, then the question of wether or not you tollerate them in the hobby is probably comming directly from the heart or emotions.
No arguements here as there will allways be fors & againsts, but they are here to stay as that is what the pet trade is allways after which is something different. Just like the cats,dogs,birds & fish etc. & remember it is the pet trade we are talking about here, not some conservation release program.

Now don't get me wrong I also like purebred animals & have many myself.
But the responsible thing is that when they are bred/sold given away or whatever they should carry the apropriate label.
If in doudt or don't like then don't buy.

Cheers
Ian
 
Majority of the people in this hobby are newcomers (keeping herps 5 years or less) and imo looks are the primary drawing point of that crowd

I would have to agree, the majority are into something that looks good, is "new" and no one else has (a bit like a new pair of designer shoes).
 
It seems creating hybrids is black magic. It's ok as long as money can be made and the animals are pretty? So because we can easily make hybrids, sell hybrids and make a buck from hybrids, does that mean it's OK? Has that made it more Acceptable?

I think one of the issues the hybrid likers are maybe over looking is that while purists don't 'pollute' their blood lines, they do potentially pollute purist's. I will say the same thing again: There are several breeders selling 'coastal jags' that are only 75% coastal blood, these will be breed to coastals and 88% coastal sibs will be sold as coastals by others. I'm sure even some of the 75% coastal sibs are being sold a coastal sibs (hence will be passed off as just coastals). Nice examples of these will find there way into purists stock. So I'm not having a shot at designer animals, they are appealing to eye. But they are starting to create a cloud of judgment over those breeding them... I don't really trust many of those people breeding jags anymore. They themselves have been confused, I'm sure some in this thread supporting jags can relate to this.
While there is room for purists and hybridizers, the hybridizers are going to effect the purists while the purists wont bother the hybridizers. Think about that when you carry on about the rants purists have!

PO's last sentence: "BUT it seems we've all jumped ship and are openly supporting this now?"

May I extend the question: Do any ethics still exist in this hobby (they do in herpetology)? Are we now openly supporting unethical, unnatural modification of what once used to be a beautiful, and fit (in Darwinian terms) wildlife?

It seems ethics are slipping at an increasing rate. The black magic wins out :(

How can you call transport and accidental relocation a natural process?

When I questioned the ethics, I was thinking more about the consequences of cross breeding and morphing, in particular the unethical act of selling / passing on something that is not what the buyer is told it is. But it really starts at the cross breeding / morphing point, doesn't it? If there were no drugs, there would be no junkies.

Exactly... Room for both but the problem with purity is a problem because of increased hybridizing for dollars and colors

DO PEOPLE THINK THAT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HYBRIDS HAVE BECOME MUCH MORE ACCEPTABLE?
 
DO PEOPLE THINK THAT OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HYBRIDS HAVE BECOME MUCH MORE ACCEPTABLE?

They have became more acceptable by those who don't know much about them and those who couldn't care less. And of course it's cherished by those who flog them as something they're not.
 
imported_Varanus:
my post was directed at the generalized reptile keeping hobby, and I did not dismiss the motives of many (not only older) keepers I believe they are just not as well represented in the hobby today. Every thread detailing "Show us your..." is filled with the most visually appealing individuals of that species, which I would suggest and base my opinion of the major motivating factor for the general hobbyist.

your point on it's getting harder to tell these days about locales is what I was trying to allude to that even without 'milkshaking' we are creating a selective pressure on the colour traits of the locale specific animals.

I realize most will disagree with me but that was a factor I thought had not been addressed in these discussions. As I said I'm not trying to taint the views about pure lines, I am actually in favour of specific locales but I can see some selective pressure amongst various animals.
 
I just love the fact that so many people that support the making these 'Morelia milkshakes' use to openly appose hybrids. I like the look of a good looking jag but after only a few years I have no trust in the 'Morelia market'. I'm already doubting purity from some of the 'big breeders'... said really.
Already I see some people selling 'coastal jags' that aren't pure coastal, some have atleast 25% murray darling. The prob is that some guys will breed these to coastals and sell sibs as coastals when in fact they aren't pure. You'd have to be a complete ignorant clown to say this isn't and wont continue to happen. BUT it seems we've all jumped ship and are openly supporting this now?

I'm skipping over every post between the original opening for the thread and my response. I have a feeling I know where you got the idea for this thread, and yes there is one big breeder in particular whom for years has had the reputation for cross breeding for the excitement of seeing what is produced. They have only just now let slip with admitting certain available bloodlines for sale as "coastal jags" are 25% MD.
There is a difference to be noted amongst reptile keepers here. Some are disconnected from the animal they keep and its natural history, seemingly only after something 'pretty' and yet interesting as a pet. Others are well aware of the locale of their reptiles, the environment it represents, its taxonomy, ecological niche, I could go on. This is not a judgement but an observation only. There are a lot of keepers however, whom keep many reptiles, work with them in the field and have both genetically pure and muddied bloodlines at home. The purist will always be selective with what they buy and where, the unperturbed reptile keeper will have far more options open to them. Yes, I think we are more accepting of hybridisation now only for the fact that either good or bad, it is a reality we have to live with.
 
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