Enrichment for reptiles

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And again, not even retracting. Not afraid of humans.
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G'day mate, never mind, it's just some people saying that they madly flee for cover etc when it's not the case. Anyway, I've got a mob here from Solarhart putting 22 more solar panels on my roof, I've gotta get going.

Have a good one.
Come on mate, it's not like you calmly walked up and picked that guy up off the rock or swam up and grabbed it while it swam toward you. It would have been underwater probably sitting on the bottom, thinking it is camouflaged, after seeing you enter the water and you swam down to get it. Either that or had to swim after it to catch it. They have the same fight or flight as any other animal. It is hardwired and not something that can be switched off unless exposed to a 'threat' for long enough to realise there is no threat.
 
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Not sure if this is numerically correct, but you get the picture.
 
I just cleaned my two Anteresias tubs and they're both exploring.
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Come on mate, it's not like you calmly walked up and picked that guy up off the rock or swam up and grabbed it while it swam toward you. It would have been underwater probably sitting on the bottom, thinking it is camouflaged, after seeing you enter the water and you swam down to get it. Either that or had to swim after it to catch it. They have the same fight or flight as any other animal. It is hardwired and not something that can be switched off unless exposed to a 'threat' for long enough to realise there is no threat.
Ok mate, lol you say probably a lot, you probably definitely don't know what you're talking about but that's just probably my opinion ay.
 
@Aussiepride83 why are u getting mad at people assuming when you’re the one assuming you know more about turtles than anyone on these forums .

I’d love to see a turtle swimming towards you with open arms to the thought of a “threat” 100x* their size picking them up for a selfie
 
As usual I've been following this post and find the discussion with everyone voicing their opinions very interesting. Considering my understanding of how the reptilian brain works I can't help but feel anthropocentrism (placing human attributes into animal behaviour) plays a huge role in our decisions toward the manner in which reptiles are kept in captivity.

It must be remember that animals (including reptiles) do not perceive time in a manner that is the same as humans. We contemplate the actions and decisions of our past and envision our actions in the future (episodic memory), whereby animals live in the present. They have what is referred to as a circadian oscillator which keeps track of their circadian cycles that are based on external clues such as temperature, day length, moon phases and celestial patterns which dictate activities such as sleep, reproducion, hibernation etc.

To address the original question, "'Do captive reptiles benefit from providing them with enrichment' (enhancing the quality of captive animal care by providing the stimuli for psychological and physiological well-being)? Personally, in regard to reptiles I'm not convinced (yet) that it plays that big a role.

Studies have proven that it is beneficial to higher order animals that are held in captivity but is it relevant to lower order animals such as captive held reptiles? Firstly I'd have to ask that given reptiles are primitive creatures with a primitive brain that is only concerned with survival, (i.e. shelter, food, water, reproduction, flight or fight responses) do they suffer from psychological conditions and boredom? Personally, unlike humans and other higher order animals, I doubt if they have the mental capacity to suffer from a psychological condition, stress or understand boredom. In fact considering physiological conditions contribute to chemicals released in a fight or flight response and that captive reptiles rarely if ever encounter the need to exercise the option I believe that it could be assumed that they don't suffer from stress at all. If it was the case that reptiles suffered from psychological conditions and stress as a result of physiological conditions couldn't it be assumed that it would be more prevalent in the wild state due to the continuous threat of predation and on-going concern with other survival factors?

I have no doubt that providing an enriched captive environment that emulates a reptile's natural environment allows the reptile to undertake activities conducive to those carried out in the wild state, but, do they need it to live contentedly in captivity? Given that when provided with the basic needs, it is obvious that those kept without the provision of a natural environment appear to survive and live long healthy lives it only leads me to ask if it is a necessity for their overall wellbeing or does it fall under a conscious category that allows the keeper the opportunity to feel more positive in the fact that they are keeping a native animal? Captive reptiles don't have the mental ability to sit around thinking..."I wish my cage had a more stimulating environment" or "I wonder what the outside world is like" or "I wish I had other things to do". Nor do they need it. As mentioned previously, reptiles do not lose their natural instincts when bred or held in captivity, so all things considered possessing the ability to contemplate on the past or envision the future could prove detrimental to a reptiles survival by wasting time with such thoughts as in the wild it would leave them open to eaten and/or effect their time spent looking for mates.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts and I'd be interested to know what others think about the subject.

George.


George, my take on the issue is - enrichment (frequent change of interior, fresh air, fresh water, feeding techniques, etc.) encourages the inhabitant to move around. That, in my opinion is beneficial if nothing else. Naturalistic enclosures also give the owner ample opportunities to observe and learn about the species' behaviour, which is beneficial to the keeper. All in all, the benefits outweigh the negatives, which in my opinion is only the time spent setting up and maintaining the enclosures. When I pick up my GTPs, I can feel the muscle tone, when I pick up GTPs kept in a box with one perch and nothing else, they feel like floppy, fatty sausages.

cheers
Michael
 
I’ve only got one perch for 2 year old male Aussie gtp but excited about getting him a second glass enclosure and really doing it up. I try not to feed him too much I wait a couple of days after a def. The scales and tails article is a great read I will read again.
 
As usual I've been following this post and find the discussion with everyone voicing their opinions very interesting. Considering my understanding of how the reptilian brain works I can't help but feel anthropocentrism (placing human attributes into animal behaviour) plays a huge role in our decisions toward the manner in which reptiles are kept in captivity.

It must be remember that animals (including reptiles) do not perceive time in a manner that is the same as humans. We contemplate the actions and decisions of our past and envision our actions in the future (episodic memory), whereby animals live in the present. They have what is referred to as a circadian oscillator which keeps track of their circadian cycles that are based on external clues such as temperature, day length, moon phases and celestial patterns which dictate activities such as sleep, reproducion, hibernation etc.

To address the original question, "'Do captive reptiles benefit from providing them with enrichment' (enhancing the quality of captive animal care by providing the stimuli for psychological and physiological well-being)? Personally, in regard to reptiles I'm not convinced (yet) that it plays that big a role.

Studies have proven that it is beneficial to higher order animals that are held in captivity but is it relevant to lower order animals such as captive held reptiles? Firstly I'd have to ask that given reptiles are primitive creatures with a primitive brain that is only concerned with survival, (i.e. shelter, food, water, reproduction, flight or fight responses) do they suffer from psychological conditions and boredom? Personally, unlike humans and other higher order animals, I doubt if they have the mental capacity to suffer from a psychological condition, stress or understand boredom. In fact considering physiological conditions contribute to chemicals released in a fight or flight response and that captive reptiles rarely if ever encounter the need to exercise the option I believe that it could be assumed that they don't suffer from stress at all. If it was the case that reptiles suffered from psychological conditions and stress as a result of physiological conditions couldn't it be assumed that it would be more prevalent in the wild state due to the continuous threat of predation and on-going concern with other survival factors?

I have no doubt that providing an enriched captive environment that emulates a reptile's natural environment allows the reptile to undertake activities conducive to those carried out in the wild state, but, do they need it to live contentedly in captivity? Given that when provided with the basic needs, it is obvious that those kept without the provision of a natural environment appear to survive and live long healthy lives it only leads me to ask if it is a necessity for their overall wellbeing or does it fall under a conscious category that allows the keeper the opportunity to feel more positive in the fact that they are keeping a native animal? Captive reptiles don't have the mental ability to sit around thinking..."I wish my cage had a more stimulating environment" or "I wonder what the outside world is like" or "I wish I had other things to do". Nor do they need it. As mentioned previously, reptiles do not lose their natural instincts when bred or held in captivity, so all things considered possessing the ability to contemplate on the past or envision the future could prove detrimental to a reptile's survival by wasting time with such thoughts as in the wild it would leave them open to being eaten and/or effect their time spent looking for mates.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts and I'd be interested to know what others think about the subject.

George.
George, you have covered this well and as mentioned briefly earlier I have had a lot of experience with large parrots, mostly red tailed and yellow tailed black cockatoos. They definitely have a high level of intelligence and you have to provide a rich environment and social engagement or you will end up with a very screwed up bird, especially with hand raised birds that have not benefited from the 18 mth raising and education normally provided by the parents.
I currently have a number of Diamond pythons housed in 2 large (2.4 x 7.0 x 2.4 aviaries that formerly housed black cockatoos. I landscaped them with multiple branches, rock ledges, several hides in different locations including underground, and I move shadecloth covering throughout the year to provide more or less sun. The interesting result is that they have their favourite places to bask before returning to hides and they do use the underground areas in very hot weather but rarely climb any of the multitude of branches. (I have tried fresh branches with leaves) They could be in an aviary a quarter the size without limiting their behaviour. The only intelligence they display is I can tap on the door and they will come out to be fed but that is probably more scent than vibration and my snakes in normal indoor enclosures do the same thing.
 
@Aussiepride83 why are u getting mad at people assuming when you’re the one assuming you know more about turtles than anyone on these forums .

I’d love to see a turtle swimming towards you with open arms to the thought of a “threat” 100x* their size picking them up for a selfie
How many turtles have you dived with?? ... I'll give you a few minutes to count them on your fingers and toes...
 
How many turtles have you dived with?? ... I'll give you a few minutes to count them on your fingers and toes...
Like 6 species, 1 of them being critically endangered.
Never said I was an expert on turtles, in fact I know almost nothing about them.

But you act like you are the turtle overlord and know everything, while everyone else must be wrong
 
Like 6 species, 1 of them being critically endangered.
Never said I was an expert on turtles, in fact I know almost nothing about them.

But you act like you are the turtle overlord and know everything, while everyone else must be wrong
No, I just have more experience with them and think that my opinion counts for something in this field. But either way you can take it or leave it, it's fine with me. I stand by my opinion that snakes are far more paranoid and insecure than turtles.
 
Talking about enrichment for intelligent animals. She gets nervous as it gets dark and doesn't feel safe on her cage or adjacent perches which are just inside a big glass door so she flies off to a safe place, always lands on top of my inkjet printer, I've tried for years to get her to land somewhere else, built special perch stands right next to it but she likes the top of the printer, likes to peck at the touch controls and send the printer into a frenzy. I started covering the printer but she just threw the cover on the floor so now I cover that with newspaper which she shreds then throws the cover on the floor so she can peck the buttons.

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Talking about enrichment for intelligent animals. She gets nervous as it gets dark and doesn't feel safe on her cage or adjacent perches which are just inside a big glass door so she flies off to a safe place, always lands on top of my inkjet printer, I've tried for years to get her to land somewhere else, built special perch stands right next to it but she likes the top of the printer, likes to peck at the touch controls and send the printer into a frenzy. I started covering the printer but she just threw the cover on the floor so now I cover that with newspaper which she shreds then throws the cover on the floor so she can peck the buttons.

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Next you gotta tie it up with rope so she has to untie it to get the paper to get the cover to get to the buttons
 
No, I just have more experience with them and think that my opinion counts for something in this field. But either way you can take it or leave it, it's fine with me. I stand by my opinion that snakes are far more paranoid and insecure than turtles.
You may have more experience with turtles than anyone here,we wont argue with that,but when you put sh1T on on people like George it just shows your immaturity.George has been around reptiles and animals in general longer than you have been alive so to claim you have more experience just shows what a wanker you are,Go back to your turtle forum and leave the reptile forums to people who like reptiles,I have only been active in reptile forums for about 15 years and wouldn't dare tell someone like George he was wrong.I thought all the dickheads had left us alone but obviously I was mistaken.
 
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