Please Explain Mr Stone

[PilbaraPythons]

As I know Doc Rock is a member of this site, I hereby challenge Simon Stone to back up his claims that he is making that first generation captive breed reptiles have a worst temperament than second or third generation.

Lets here your methods and results from your clinical experiments analyzing the comparisons.
Or is your up and coming article about this very subject and a warning to avoid wild caught reptiles just a way to gain a few more sales? Please enlighten us Mr. Stone, I can’t wait, and of course I would hate to have my belief in what your intentions are all mixed up.

Cheers Dave

 

[arbok]

lol,
doesnt really make sense either way... either that or ive got it all wrong!

because wild caught u could get some good temprement and bad temprement right Dave?
and captive bred its the same deal....
3rd and fourth generation could only really make if a difference if you selectively breed the oneswith the "best" temprements...

just my understanding of it... correct me if im wayyyy of!

 

[Splitmore]

whats with all the popcorn rubbish?
Dave has simply asked Stone to provide the back up evidence to support his claims which he has apparently left out of the article. As a breeder myself I am extremely interested in Simon Stones study and how he has come to his conclusions about temperament in first and second generation offspring. Maybe Stone has unlocked the secret in how to effectively 'domesticate' an amimal which has evolved over thousands of years in one or two generations.
Surely thats worth asking the question.

 

[arbok]

whats with all the popcorn rubbish?
Dave has simply asked Stone to provide the back up evidence to support his claims which he has apparently left out of the article. As a breeder myself I am extremely interested in Simon Stones study and how he has come to his conclusions about temperament in first and second generation offspring. Maybe Stone has unlocked the secret in how to effectively 'domesticate' an amimal which has evolved over thousands of years in one or two generations.
Surely thats worth asking the question.

when i read the article, i just assumed he bred the ones with good temprement.. lol

 

[Hickson]

I strongly believe that there is nothing wrong with asking a valid question, even of our sponsors. However, the tone of the first post in this thread is a little hostile. This may well be unintentional, but it has still come across that way and we have had complaints (which is why I mention it).

The Mods will be watching this thread, so please keep all discussions civil. Members are allowed to have different viewpoints, and you can agree to disagree. But please refrain from indulging in any name-calling or general nastiness simply because someone has a different opinion to yours.



Hix

 

[TrueBlue]

I would also like to know the answer to Daves question, as many breeders claim to breed for temperament. Yet to me the perfect example would be dogs, they have been domesticly bred for hundreds, possibly thousands of years, yet you can still get aggresive and non-aggresive dogs in a litter no matter how they are raised, or by whom.

 

[Retic]

I thought we had this exact same thread a couple of months ago ?

 

[Ricko]

This is a new article i believe boa.

 

[Retic]

Oh OK, thanks. It's basically the same question asked before though.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Furthermore I am appealing for evidence from Simon Stone on how he concludes temperament improvement from 1st generation to 2nd etc. That was never asked for nor given in the thread you are referring to Boa.

 

[pugsly]

You think that he is going to reply?

No chance.. I'm with you though, 1st or 50th, all the same, ask Scarffy, no difference.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I have no idea whether he will reply or not.
The challenge has been made, it is now up to him to explain, if he wants to of course.

Cheers Dave

 

[Splitmore]

Exactly pugsly, most breeders will tell you exactly the same thing, unless of course they are pedalling their own hatchlings and making them out to be something special. Thats why I'd love to hear how he's managed to do it.

 

[rexs1]

I have bred jungles that from the first generation to successive generations show completely different personalities. From the same clutch of any generation you can get exeptionally quiet animals through to complete psycho's. Some breeds(womas, B/Hs) the whole clutch are usually quiet natured snakes. It will be interesting to hear Simon's reasons for his observations.
cheers Rex

 

[wokka]

Theres been very little work done on heretability in reptile although we all have our theories. I think one of the biggest furphies is the supposed heritability of appearance. We,ve all seen good and bad come out of the same clutch.I suppose the more generations captive bred animals become they should naturally select 'independant of the keeper' towards suitability for captive keeping. In the extreme case those that are not suited die and so dont breed but I suggest the genetic progrees is relatively slow. Keeper are always claiming credit for what the animals do naturally.

 

[Sdaji]

There was a thread on this topic a year or two ago. It was quite possibly the most ridiculous thread the site has ever seen (and that's really saying something! :shock: ). I don't think many people understand the heritability of behaviour well at all, and due to what happened last time, I'm not even going to try to throw my 2c in, other than to say that APS is probably not the best place to be discussing the topic. The last thread proved that someone describing obvious facts is no match for a swarm of people convinced of nonsense.

 

[Retic]

:lol:

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Conclusions that can be considered fact are not always fact because they were subject to an experiment, e.g we know that 2 + 2 = 4 without having to count out bananas.
When you are talking about reptile placidness or temperament change between first generation and 2nd with no selective breeding involved however, this can only be evaluated by practical experiment and a quantified way of comparing that temperament.
I simply ask the question, has he done such an experiment and if so please enlighten with some details to cross examine.

As Mr Stone has previously publicly stated, that there have been a number of wild caught snakes exported from W.A and their first generation captive bred offspring are more problematic than 2nd generation etc, then it would be logical to assume that he either, had wild caught W.A snakes in such an experiment himself or knows of someone else that have used these reptiles in such an experiment. As we clearly know what species have been exported and had captive breed offspring off of most, we know his claim is flawed and hence the questions.
Those that bleat that this subject is done to death then you have the choice to never view this thread again. I am betting you still do.

Cheers Dave

 

[chilli]

dave, you seem to think everything Dr Stone writes or says is a sly shot at you that you require him to justify. he just states what he thinks and that can be formed from observations, anecdotes etc without the necessity for scientific evaluations. don't read his articles with the view that he's having a shot at you, cause i'm sure he doesn't give you a thought when he's writing them

cheers, got any 'pinstripe' stimmies

 

[flavirufus]

I have to agree with Chilli, Dave you seem to take everything Simon says or writes so personally. The basis of this whole debate is whether captive bred animals are better captives than wild caught animals. Every experienced keeper in the world knows that, on average, captive bred animals are far superior. However, this fact doesn't mean there isn't a reason to take from the wild, doesn't mean that many wild caught snakes can't make good captives, and doesn't mean that licenced wild collectors are evil people. Just relax, let go of the jealousy, and be comfortable with the fact that you believe you're going about your herping career the right way.
Regards,
Matt