Will you be Crossing your subspecies??

[cement]

I guess the poll shows that most people that got to vote here are "naturalists".
Definition of someone who likes things the way they evolved naturally. Generally these people appreciate the true beauty of nature and are put off by people who like to play god and toy with themselves while striving to have the BIGGEST this and the BRIGHTEST that.
I won't be crossing sub species, because I don't actually feel I have the right to fiddle with naturally occuring species.
We've been down this road before, haven't we Randy. You take everything as a personal attack on your country.

 

[ad]

I couldn't agree more Cement,
Randy is banging on about what??? the fact he thinks Im a zealot - a great debating point for the favour of cross breeding,
Even though the poll indicates I am in the majority, he still feels the need to defend.... what? His own right to freedom of choice? lol More than half the "i want to cross breed' votes would come from internationals too!!
Lucky we dont need liberating, hey.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Well said Randy!!! Its funny how us Australians hate the foreigners isnt it??? And the poll in favour not crossing is based on what. What happens to other forum members when they say they like Hybrids??? Being Bombarded with the abuse by senior members?? It boils down to what I like. Thats all.
Still cant see these Big Guns adding their names to their posts. Well I guess we dont all have the balls to claim our words.
Nicole

 

[jellybelly]

ok i have read a good amount of these posts but still cant work this hybrid thing out

how is it any different to breed a tully jungle to a palmerston jungle, or a qld bhp to a nt bhp, compared with breedin a qld carpet python with a south west carpet python. Sub species are just geographic location so i dont get the difference here.

i dont get it, maybe its cause i dont have snakes, but still doesnt make sense.

 

[smacdonald]

how is it any different to breed a tully jungle to a palmerston jungle, or a qld bhp to a nt bhp, compared with breedin a qld carpet python with a south west carpet python.

There's almost no difference. There's a small, arbitrary difference when it comes to paperwork. But from an ecological point of view they are two closely spaced points on a continuum.


Stewart

 

[jellybelly]

well thats what i thought, apart from the human asserted nomenclature if this and the licensing crap (ie anything that humans have imposed) i couldnt actually see any difference, therefore by that way, unless you are breeding across species, ie carpet with a woma, then you are not hybridising. otherwise we have to go to the other extreme and say unless you are breeding with locality specific animals soley you are hybridising

Thanks i think i get it now

 

[Australis]

We also have the attacks and insults by you and your sidekick Australis on America and Europe. Hey I can understand the two of you being a little jealous as we can have and keep what we want but instead of insulting us why not work to change your laws so you too can have and keep what ever your heart desires and your wallet can handle.
It's strange, I know of a number of Aussies and folks from other countries that hang out now and then on our forums and I can't remember once seeing anyone attack or insult where they come from, kind of interesting that. Randy

randy,

First off, im no ones side-kick and no ones mine, there are many people who share the same view as
Ad and myself (i see cement also appreciates his countries native fauna), doesnt mean hes in cahoots.
Your posting how hard done by, you and your country is, being put down, then your happy to turn around
and call someone a "zealot", geeeez your a top bloke randy, although i wouldnt expect anything less.

Im not sure why you keep bringing up your access to non-australian animals, its has NOTHING to do with
this thread at all, if your not keeping in Australia, your comments on this thread hold no weight either, not
even sure why your posting.

I can only speak for myself (even though i know many share the same interest as me) when i say im not the
slightest bit jealous of Americans or Europeans access to non Australian reptiles... but you dont seem to
comprehend this, i can keep a lot of non indigenous bird and fish species, but im really only interested
in keeping indigenous species....... are you following yet?

Why dont you go herping (google it) or something, insteading of belittling Australians.

Matt

 

[peterjohnson64]

From what I understand, in Australia we have the following types of Carpet Pythons: Diamonds, Coastals, Jungles, Murray Darlings, Darwins, Bredli and Imbricata. All of these animals can interbreed and produce fertiel offspring. Even the people in the states are saying that their animals are whatever percentage diamond and whatever percentage coastal etc. This all requires someone to knwo what the parents are to make that claim.

Do you like having all these different types of Carpet Pythons? I do. And I want to keep it that way.

If we continue to interbreed the differnt types then you can see a time in the future when, in captivity, there will only be "Carpet Pythons" that look differently. Is that what people want? I certainly don't.

As opposed to the States, we dont have a limited gene pool of each individual sub species in Australia. If we want to continue to keep having these different sub species then the ONLY way to do that is to stop hybridising.

So sure, if you want to develop snakes that you can merely advertise as a snake then go for it. If, however, you want to keep Australia's native animals as they are (and, by the way, how nature made them through natural selection) then please stop crossing the sub species.

Now my other concern from this thread - all the posts seem to agree that crossing is wrong. Yet 48 people have already stated that they would do it. Yes, thats 48 people already indicating they would breed mongrels. That in itself is scary IMHO.

 

[jellybelly]

If we continue to interbreed the differnt types then you can see a time in the future when, in captivity, there will only be "Carpet Pythons" that look differently. Is that what people want? I certainly don't.

This is a totally non-sensical arguement. otherwise we wouldnt have staffies, chihuahua, great dane etc. people have been keeping dogs for longer than pretty much anything else and have been inbreeding and hybridisiing these dogs for ever.

And yet there are still a plethora of breeds of animals.

There will always be purists, and there will be the (and cause i am an old fart i am going to blame it on the youngens) generation x people, who always want something bigger and better than there mate, somethin different. These people wont be herpers as such, more so they will be a person with a pet,and it just happens that the pet is a snake, so therefore linage and breed etc, wont make a slap of difference. THey just wan what they think is cool.

 

[ravensgait]

Concrete,, Quote"" I won't be crossing sub species, because I don't actually feel I have the right to fiddle with naturally occuring species.""
Ah so you must not own or breed any animals then, why hang around a reptile site then? Yeah I know you're just being a hypocrite. As owning and breeding reptiles goes against what you say in the quote above. I know I know in your world it's do as I say not as I do LMAO.

Your comment reminded me of something a friend of mine said once. Humans are a part of nature so what ever we do must be a work of nature.. So there by humans breeding Crosses,Hybrids or what have you, it must there for follow that we are , well you get the picture lol..

Ad, what is there to debate with you??well unless you want to try and convince me the world is flat or than humans were trans planted to Earth from some where else. You have laws in most your country that say you can't create hybrids or crosses as I pointed out before but I guess that flew over your head, most folks don't want to publicly admit to breaking the law or thinking about breaking the law.

And boys one thing I don't do is take things personally, heck what are the odds that we'd ever meet ? yeah slim to none so why would I get upset by what a couple of Internet jockey's say. Hey if nothing else you a little typing practice

 

[ravensgait]

Quote""however, you want to keep Australia's native animals as they are (and, by the way, how nature made them through natural selection) then please stop crossing the sub species.""
If that is what you want then you best get after your lawmakers to ban the private ownership of these animals.. Randy

 

[peterjohnson64]

This is a totally non-sensical arguement. otherwise we wouldnt have staffies, chihuahua, great dane etc. people have been keeping dogs for longer than pretty much anything else and have been inbreeding and hybridisiing these dogs for ever.

And yet there are still a plethora of breeds of animals.

There will always be purists, and there will be the (and cause i am an old fart i am going to blame it on the youngens) generation x people, who always want something bigger and better than there mate, somethin different. These people wont be herpers as such, more so they will be a person with a pet,and it just happens that the pet is a snake, so therefore linage and breed etc, wont make a slap of difference. THey just wan what they think is cool.

Jellybelly, do you realise that all dogs are merely canis lupus familiaris? All of them are the same species. No subspecies or different types of scientific names. Really, they are just canis lupus but because they now look so much different to a wolf they added the familiaris to indicate that they are actually a domesticated wolf. What you call Staffies, chihauhas etc are merely human interpretations of different morphs of the wolf. Even a dingo is Canis lupus.

Our carpet pythons are actually different species (spilota, Imbricata or Bredli) or sub-species (all the spilota complex).

So what you call "hybradising" a dog is actually no different to puting an albino carpet over a hypermelanistic one to try to make one that looks different. True hybradising would be putting a grey fox over a red fox.

But then, what does this have to do with it anyway. As I said, I want to keep native australian animals. Personally, I wouldnt put an NT frilly over a Qld Frilly, or an NT BHP over a Qld BHP either. So even if the spilota complex were merged into one species then I still wouldn't want to see a Sydney Carpet crossed with a Tully Carpet. Thats just me.

But if you merely want to make designer snakes that are morphed and crossed to make more desirable pets then that is your perogative. I agree, we have done this to Canis lupus over thousands of years.

And as for writing to the law makers. I am more than willing to put my money where my mouth is there. In fact, I have today finished a submission that Mac Herps will be making to the NSW Licensing Review that recommends that we make hybradising reptiles illegal in NSW.

 

[jellybelly]

Thanks for reinforcing my point. I am making no reference here to man made nomenclature. What i am saying is that things just wont be blended to the point where people dont know what what is. I dont own snakes, and breeding doesnteven interest me.

My point is merely the fact that we dont just have one dog barely distinguishable from another, we have many different types of dog. Similarly, just because some people are, what some call hybridising, isnt going to mean we are going to have a single snake called Morellia SNAKE.

But you have brought up that very interesting and pertinent issue. Some people say that (as you have alluded to) putting a NT X over a QLD X is hybridising, while others say that being a sub - species to one another is not hybridising.

Just doesnt make any sense really as there doesnt appear to be a clear cut definition if you will of what really constitutes hybridising.

As far as the laws are concerned, this isnt going to change a thing, your not supposed to breed alibinism but people do.

May be there is no simple answer for it.

Maybe the idea of a national breeders register, similar to pedigree dogs, which have to be certified (or better still DNA tested as in the UK), having this certification will mean people will know exactly what they are buying.

Laws dont seem to work real well, maybe education and having systems in place to make it more worth while to buy pure is the best way.

Probably a very tricky and hard question really.

Oh and by the way, one of the major reasons that all dogs are the same species is because they are a domestic animal, but still this has no bearing on what i was saying.

 

[junglepython2]

Please Randy do you really think we are jealous of the American herp industry??? I would like to bet if a similar poll was held on legalising exotic imports the majority would vote no, so I can't see how you we can be so jealous of what you have.

The majority here have clearly voted against hybrids, why can't you accept that? If you want to breed them over in the states then go for it, no one is stopping you. However the majority here want to keep things pure. I'm not sure what it's like over there but keeping native fauna here isn't some god given right it's still a privilege so your "freedom to do what you want" arguement doesn't hold much water.

 

[C'baoth]

ssnakeman that just looks like a standard coastal to me .

Personally I think that the rewards of line breeding in this hobby is the ultimate goal . Cross breeding Morelia is cheating & not at all something that has any value to me . I love morphs , but only ones that are the product of years of dedication to line breeding a particular subspecies . A cross bred mutant has absolutely no value to me , although it may be a awesome looking snake , at the end of the day it's just a cheap imitation of what could have been a lifetimes work .

 

[Snake Catcher Victoria]

ssnakeman that just looks like a standard coastal to me

What it looks like and what it is is two different things ...
M.d and coastal in that one.

 

[C'baoth]

That's the beauty of Coastals though . No 2 are the same . They are a great starting platform for a breeding project because there is so much variation within the same clutch .

 

[C'baoth]

Honestly , I just don't get it . Everyone is into their own thing & that's cool , but I love what is already available & what is going to be available from the produce i've seen from selected breeding . It just scares me to think of all the deception that is undoubtedly going to happen as a result of all this as people try to sell their reptiles to a market that isn't in my opinion ready to embrace Xbreds .

 

[ravensgait]

Please Randy do you really think we are jealous of the American herp industry??? I would like to bet if a similar poll was held on legalising exotic imports the majority would vote no, so I can't see how you we can be so jealous of what you have.

The majority here have clearly voted against hybrids, why can't you accept that? If you want to breed them over in the states then go for it, no one is stopping you. However the majority here want to keep things pure. I'm not sure what it's like over there but keeping native fauna here isn't some god given right it's still a privilege so your "freedom to do what you want" argument doesn't hold much water.

Where have I refuted the results of the poll? or tied to tell anyone or even suggest what they should or shouldn't breed?
As for being jealous I don't know if you are or not, was just commenting on how some liked to take shots at American and European herpers. Hey if you don't want us around start a poll to have us excluded and maybe the admin will do that for you.
Heck I could care less if you like crosses or hybrids or not but I don't think anyone has the right to tell others what they can and can't breed.

Now as far as that poll goes I would imagine from his comments that Ad, voted against hybrids and crosses. Though I have to wonder why he has had such a change of heart? He used to seem to feel they were pretty wonderful, well if you can go by his past comments made on this site.

So JP he seems that people can change their minds about things who knows 10 years from now I might be against them, though I really doubt I'll be trying to tell other that they should breed them... Randy

 

[urodacus_au]

Thanks for reinforcing my point. I am making no reference here to man made nomenclature. What i am saying is that things just wont be blended to the point where people dont know what what is. I dont own snakes, and breeding doesnteven interest me.

My point is merely the fact that we dont just have one dog barely distinguishable from another, we have many different types of dog. Similarly, just because some people are, what some call hybridising, isnt going to mean we are going to have a single snake called Morellia SNAKE.

But you have brought up that very interesting and pertinent issue. Some people say that (as you have alluded to) putting a NT X over a QLD X is hybridising, while others say that being a sub - species to one another is not hybridising.

Just doesnt make any sense really as there doesnt appear to be a clear cut definition if you will of what really constitutes hybridising.

As far as the laws are concerned, this isnt going to change a thing, your not supposed to breed alibinism but people do.

May be there is no simple answer for it.

Maybe the idea of a national breeders register, similar to pedigree dogs, which have to be certified (or better still DNA tested as in the UK), having this certification will mean people will know exactly what they are buying.

Laws dont seem to work real well, maybe education and having systems in place to make it more worth while to buy pure is the best way.

Probably a very tricky and hard question really.

Oh and by the way, one of the major reasons that all dogs are the same species is because they are a domestic animal, but still this has no bearing on what i was saying.

Very well written, pity the content is mud. You said it in your first paragraph, you dont own snakes....