'De-venomised' snakes ruled dangerous

[hodges]

I still respect him as a snake handler, tho i don't like some of his ways of teaching (Venomoids ETC) but just a general keeper is why i will respect him, if you take away all this crap that he does mainly directed at Venomoids he is a very knowledgeable keeper. This is my opinion i will stick by this, as i said i don't like some of his teaching techniques.

 

[hodges]

So obviously you haven't seen the nonsense he goes on about on his yahoo site...I believe he is a bit of a keyboard warrior himself

Yes, he likes to dish his fair share to mainly venomous snake handlers making there mistakes (Getting Tagged ETC) this is another thing i don't like i can understand notifying members of some handlers mistakes but he likes to take it too far. He sure has given his fair share towards Jonno.

 

[alex_c]

im not saying what they are defending is good, clearly you cant read, what i am saying is
its good he is standing up for what he believes in and doesn't sit here and type nonsense about each other all night

you obviously have not seen his website and shame lists lol their is more reasons why this guy is disliked than just venomoids

 

[mckellar007]

Yes, he likes to dish his fair share to mainly venomous snake handlers making there mistakes (Getting Tagged ETC) this is another thing i don't like i can understand notifying members of some handlers mistakes but he likes to take it too far. He sure has given his fair share towards Jonno.

and his you tube video where he names every snake handler that has been bitten within the last couple of years claiming that he is the only safe snakehandler(he also forces the snake to bite him in the video)

 

[Kersten]

I had heard about the possiblilty that voided animals could regenerate their glands a while ago, and ever since my heart has stopped when I've seen pictures of kids with these animals hanging around their necks. Hearing that this potentially deadly exercise has been banned is the best news I've heard in a long time. Let's just hope it's adhered to, and if not that the he's suitably punished for playing cowboy with the lives of others.

 

[caustichumor]

I think it is a pity that a lot of newer herp enthusiests only know the name Ray Hoser by assosiation with venomoids, it really has overshadowed all the work he has done over the previous decades.

 

[cris]

So if someone believes in animal cruelty and defends such acts that's okay by your books?

Its no worse than catch and release fishing, i personally have less of an issue with fairly minor surgery without anesthetic in order to achieve a practical outcome, than impaling native animals on hooks for sport. I find it funny how some think one is the end of the world yet get their knickers in a twist if someone has a go at their own cruel behaviour.

Can anyone direct me to any info on snakes regenerating completely removed organs? i remember reading a bit about this a when i first heard about them and i never found anything to suggest a completely removed venom gland could regenerate from nothing. Apart from the case where that tiger snake appeared to regenerate an eye is there anything else?

 

[cris]

I think it is a pity that a lot of newer herp enthusiests only know the name Ray Hoser by assosiation with venomoids, it really has overshadowed all the work he has done over the previous decades.

I think you will find things started before he started making voids. He has definately made a big contribution to herpetology, some of it can lead you a stray due to his disregard for scientific proccess, but if you have a brain and can think for yourself it doesnt matter.

 

[moosenoose]

mor;1273245]I think it is a pity that a lot of newer herp enthusiests only know the name Ray Hoser by assosiation with venomoids, it really has overshadowed all the work he has done over the previous decades.

Let's not forget "plagiarised"

I love all the ones out there flying the flags for his procedures on voided snakes. Quite clearly Hoser had the right of passage to provide substantial (and factually based) evidence to support his claims that his voided animals were derived via legitimate and ethical means, and this failed....and badly! Maybe some of you should have been standing up in his defence while this went before the courts (instead of hiding behind "your" computers! 8))! Truly laughable!

How do you think any of this was brought to the attention of the DSE??? There are two scenarios here! (A) Either reptile enthusiasts were unhappy with his butchering practices and decided to become whistle-blowers on the whistle-blower, or (B) Hoser thought he was bigger than the DSE and tried his luck taking them on!

The point is, regardless of either of those points (and whether they are right or wrong), is that what he is doing to these animals is CRUEL, and in addition (and primarily) done to make money! Why else would you do it??? "because it is less cruel than using a hook" Pffffft ...Don't make me sick! :evil:

So Cris, you're comparing this practice to fishing??? :lol: I don't do catch and release by the way, I fish for food, and I stop when I've got it. This practice is a money-making exercise. Pure and simple. Put yourself in the animals position!

 

[gman78]

Good to see finally

 

[Serpant_Lady]

Its no worse than catch and release fishing, i personally have less of an issue with fairly minor surgery without anesthetic in order to achieve a practical outcome, than impaling native animals on hooks for sport. I find it funny how some think one is the end of the world yet get their knickers in a twist if someone has a go at their own cruel behaviour.

Hi Cris,

I find our comments inetesting in that I took a unit based around morals and ethics. We directly looked at why all states animal cruelty acts excluded fish. Several studies have been conducted (involving the firing pace of neurons when stimulated and when not for example) and there is a wide variety of ancedotal evidence to support the theory that fish do not have the advanced nervous system needed to feel pain that 'higher' vertebrates have. I am not saying that it is ok to gut a fish alive simply that it is widely believed that there is a big difference. Take Pavlov's dogs for instance vs say fish that get released and then immediately rehook themselves. Some people debate that this is simply because fish do not have the ability to remeber the event and associate it with the hook - others rebuke this saying that if the fish has not recognition of the 'pain' then it as good as does not feel it.

Let me assure you that a snake, even one which is placed in a fridge for a few hours beforehand would feel everying - just because their neurons are firing at a slower pace does not mean they are numb, but simply that the pain message to the brain is delayed. After the excision the pain would increase due to the highly innervated areas around the head and eye regions.

Hope this helps people understand why this practice is so abhorrant, as it would be in any other animal.

SL

 

[Hetty]

Cris, apart from Hoser's motives, which as moose said are for financial gain.. you're comparing say.. a lip piercing to having your tonsils out. I know which I'd prefer! If you've had surgery before you know how invasive and painful it is, and that's with anesthetic and pain medication. I'm not saying the snake feels as much as we do.. we don't know how much these animals suffered.

 

[cris]

Hi Cris,

I find our comments inetesting in that I took a unit based around morals and ethics. We directly looked at why all states animal cruelty acts excluded fish. Several studies have been conducted (involving the firing pace of neurons when stimulated and when not for example) and there is a wide variety of ancedotal evidence to support the theory that fish do not have the advanced nervous system needed to feel pain that 'higher' vertebrates have. I am not saying that it is ok to gut a fish alive simply that it is widely believed that there is a big difference. Take Pavlov's dogs for instance vs say fish that get released and then immediately rehook themselves. Some people debate that this is simply because fish do not have the ability to remeber the event and associate it with the hook - others rebuke this saying that if the fish has not recognition of the 'pain' then it as good as does not feel it.

Let me assure you that a snake, even one which is placed in a fridge for a few hours beforehand would feel everying - just because their neurons are firing at a slower pace does not mean they are numb, but simply that the pain message to the brain is delayed. After the excision the pain would increase due to the highly innervated areas around the head and eye regions.

Hope this helps people understand why this practice is so abhorrant, as it would be in any other animal.

SL

Atleast some fish(probably most or all) have been found to have pain receptors like humans. I dont think this issue has anything to do with nerve receptors etc. its to do with whether or not you choose to have empathy for the animal, quite simply most dont care about stupid scaly squirmy things that show no sign of human likeness, to give one more importance than the other is quite funny IMO.

All im trying to point out is that those who are strongly against this surgery etc. are just as fanatical if not more so than those who want to ban sport fishing.

 

[cris]

Cris, apart from Hoser's motives, which as moose said are for financial gain.. you're comparing say.. a lip piercing to having your tonsils out. I know which I'd prefer! If you've had surgery before you know how invasive and painful it is, and that's with anesthetic and pain medication.

An ideal hooking does cause little damage, perhaps consider when the lip gets ripped off, live fish is impaled as bait, fish swallow the hook and it goes into organs or when fish are stressed out in a long fight, often to the point of almost certain death, often brought into unbreathable air for extended periods(perhaps comparable to trying to drown someone).

I'm not saying the snake feels as much as we do.. we don't know how much these animals suffered.

Exactly, its just speculation. I think its very unlikely snakes are anywhere near as wimpy about pain as some humans. According to the only information available the snakes dont seem to be bothered by the surgery and eat soon after. I have no doubt that the surgery causes far more stress to some humans than its does to the snakes its performed on.

 

[Tatelina]

I think it is a pity that a lot of newer herp enthusiests only know the name Ray Hoser by assosiation with venomoids, it really has overshadowed all the work he has done over the previous decades.

I have no pity. All self inflicted.

 

[redbellybite]

whats the purpose anyway? scientists that are doing studies on the venomous snakes of Australia are usually interested in the whole snake including the venom glands ...we know that reptiles can do amazing things with there bodies if injured, hence the crocs shutting down blood supply ...I think his side show bob days should come to an end ,I am glad that it was ruled that way ...Iam not saying he doesnt know his stuff at all, but his practises and preaches need to be pulled into line and fortunatly it was ...

 

[daniel1234]

Interesting thread, have only skimmed over it but I agree that it is a cruel practice. What if it is not done properly (that is by people who learn to do the backyard surgury) and regeneration, or simply only partial effects occur. My Grandad told of having teeth and tonsils removed pretty much like this. Oh but thats right snakes are just animals with small brains so could not possibly feel pain. Cool, then next time I need to have an animal desexed I'll just do it myself and save the vet bill, buy a ven and tear off all the bits I don't like:evil::evil::evil::evil:
Oops, sorry, it's just cruel.

 

[moosenoose]

The fact remains is this: IF for some rational reason something like this should be done (which there is no rational reason) the procedure must be undertaken by a qualified veterinary surgeon, not some backyard hack! It’s as simple as that. How can anyone argue against that?? Kudos to the DSE for finally giving these animals a voice! They’ve just moved up a notch in my books!

 

[cris]

The fact remains is this: IF for some rational reason something like this should be done (which there is no rational reason)

There are obvious rational reasons, even if you dont agree with them. Deadly venomous snakes can kill or cause serious damage and present a considerable risk, especially in shows. Being able to show that these snakes can be quite placid and are not automatically going to try and kill for no reason is the main advantage IMO. Freehandling is also going to be better on the snakes than pinning or tailing agro snakes as you see in some dodgy snake shows. He talks it up and exagerates alot, but you will find all the reasons on his site.

Of course its possible to have very good snake shows without them, but they were an obvious advantage.

Here is a youtube clip, note how he points out how many have required medical attention for bites in shows. I really wonder how they make out his shows are the ones that arnt safe.
[video=youtube;5oxumVmQNIw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oxumVmQNIw[/video]

 

[pythons73]

im not saying what they are defending is good, clearly you cant read, what i am saying is
its good he is standing up for what he believes in and doesn't sit here and type nonsense about each other all night

Thought u were gonna bother reading any replies!?! HaHa!!!