Do reptiles need mental stimulation?

[JasonL]

I give all my reptiles mental stimulation, I put in another one of the opposite sex, and they both go mental, well with humans it works that way.....

 

[cris]

These are just a few examples; of factors; that may indeed; reflect some form of mental stimulation...
Given the fact that snakes; like other forms of reptiles; get use to a set routine; does lead one to believe;
that there is some form of thought process involved....I don't believe it's just restricted to 'survival instincts';
regardless whether it's a higher or lower form of reptile.
If a reptile can show sign's of stress; why not is then conceivable; it may need a certain amount;
mental stimulation to flourish?

A very good point, just because snakes are much more simple mentally would not exclude them from needing stimulation, but i think things like pythons and adders would be quite happy to sit in a relitively small box with ideal conditions and just sit and wait for their food. Other species that are active hunters such as taipans, common tree snakes, browns etc. i think do miss out a bit in captivity, especially if they are kept the same way as pythons. These animals are active hunters and its quite clear their natural behaviours are retarded in captivity, but i do believe they would adapt to the way they are raised, for eg. my common tree snakes dont display typical hunting and foraging behaviour, but when they notice when im going to the freezer and that gets them very excited(especially if they havnt eaten in a week or so), much like when a wild snake sees a frog.

IMO about the only mental stimulation my snakes would be lacking is hunting live animals, being hunted by other animals and occasional trauma. To have these sort of stimuli in captivity would raise a whole heap of legal and ethical issues and i dont think they are really needed for snakes.

 

[longte]

Pythons love intellectual stimulus
Happy snakes are more healthy
Their intelligence may be very different to ours and thus hard to guage accurately
Mine are handled a lot except for three days after feeding
they are taken outside into low trees very often
Their food is usually hidden so they have to seek it out
It is very rare that they try to tag me

 

[Camo]

I know thats its in America but if all these branches and stimulations are needed then why do most of the Ball python and colubrid breeders over in the states only have thier snakes in those little breeding tubs? They are no bigger than my rat breeding tubs.

They seem to produce alot of different snakes and thier growth rate i am sure is fine. They certainly appear to be happy.

If anyone has ever seen the breeding tubs i am talking about you will know they only provide the snakes with water and substrate. No hide and no branches.

Cameron

 

[Colin]

I think a lot of their keepers need more mental stimulation.

too true :lol:

 

[Crazy_Snake08]

I don't know about mental stimualtion...but definitely different setups may result in better muscle tone???

 

[Tatelina]

The main problem with the poll is that it is unbalanced. The 'yes' answer is non-commital while the 'no' answer is absolute. It's easier to vote for 'I think so' than 'definitely'. Very poorly worded, biased poll which won't give a true reflection of the members' feelings. It should have been "I think so" and "I don't think so" or "Yes and "No" or "Definitely" and "Definitely not", or something similar.

I agree! I tried to change the poll options as soon as I made it...but you can only edit your post and not the poll.

 

[wokka]

I am wondering about the effect of different colours on behavior. What colour does your snake prefer for cage walls?

 

[cris]

I am wondering about the effect of different colours on behavior. What colour does your snake prefer for cage walls?

I dont really think colour would matter much, but IMO black or dark is much better.

 

[Jonno from ERD]

Other species that are active hunters such as taipans, common tree snakes, browns etc. i think do miss out a bit in captivity, especially if they are kept the same way as pythons.

Hey mate,

I keep all three species in very simple enclosures. Tree Snakes are kept in 28 litre tubs in a rack system, and Browns and Tai's are kept in tubs measuring 80cm x 40cm x 15cm. I have kept both legally wild caught and captive bred specimens the same way and one thing is certain - they absolutely thrive in it. They nearly always become very calm, apart from the Tai's who relax a lot but not to the extent of Browns.

For the rest of the topic...I find that a lot of people try and humanise their snakes. This isn't really a problem, apart from them providing them with very labour intensive, unsterile enclosures. However, one thing is almost definitely certain - snakes are instinct based, even the so called "intelligent" species like Taipans. Everything they do is based of instinct, a basic hard-wired quest for survival. I don't believe there is any thought processes, no decisions or choices made, just hard-wired reactions to different stimulus. These reactions may vary from individual to individual but that's about it.

 

[cris]

Hey mate,

I keep all three species in very simple enclosures. Tree Snakes are kept in 28 litre tubs in a rack system, and Browns and Tai's are kept in tubs measuring 80cm x 40cm x 15cm. I have kept both legally wild caught and captive bred specimens the same way and one thing is certain - they absolutely thrive in it. They nearly always become very calm, apart from the Tai's who relax a lot but not to the extent of Browns.

Im also keeping my newly aquired (legal)wild caught tree snakes in tubs, simply because it seems to be the best way of keeping them(as it is with most snakes). I wasnt trying to say it was bad husbandry, just that it seems to retard their natural behaviour if they are raised in this way as opposed to being in an open space having to hunt their food etc. such as in the wild. Perhaps suggesting they are "missing out" wasnt the best choice of words, probably more me missing out on watching natural behaviour really.

This is based off my observations of common tree snakes and i just assumed other similar hunting type snakes would be quite similar. I dont think it is going to make them sad, or experience human like depression.

For the rest of the topic...I find that a lot of people try and humanise their snakes. This isn't really a problem, apart from them providing them with very labour intensive, unsterile enclosures. However, one thing is almost definitely certain - snakes are instinct based, even the so called "intelligent" species like Taipans. Everything they do is based of instinct, a basic hard-wired quest for survival. I don't believe there is any thought processes, no decisions or choices made, just hard-wired reactions to different stimulus. These reactions may vary from individual to individual but that's about it.

I think this is quite true, however there is a quite valid theory that even highly intellegent animals such as humans(well not all humans are highly intellegent..) are exactly the same, just far more complex. A bit like studies on differant racial groups, this sort of thing is kept quiet as it would have massive legal ramifications.

 

[mrmikk]

In short, YES

 

[cris]

Huh?

 

[xScarlettex]

Do reptiles need mental stimulation?

Interesting question; with differing views;
providing answers that could be perceived either right or wrong;
depending on your own personal morels...
It's been proven that a snake can be raised it's whole life in a plastic container;
successfully growing; breeding etc; without any adverse health problems....that we know of.
Does that then make it right to do so?...
Each keeper regardless of keeping methods; IMO is responsible for 'Quality of life'.
How do we provide 'Quality of life' for say; a snake whose needs and wants maybe rather simple?
Firstly by fulfilling it's most basic needs; for survival....food, water, heat and housing.
As a keeper we may build on these basic needs; to create an environment;
that offers variables; that may in fact offer mental stimulus....

- An enclosure that has a variety of hides; allowing the animal to 'choose' where it wants to rest;
deposit eggs etc
- Introduction of various cage furnishing's; that may provide the stimulus for a inactive animal to become active;
and explore it's enclosure.
- A temperature gradient within the enclosure; that allows the animal a 'choice' as to where;
and how long it spends there.
- Different foods that allow the animal a 'choice' whether it's interested in feeding now or not.
- Water; mist sprayed; increasing the humidity; simulating a rain storm; may trigger the animal to
become active; in turn offering stimulus....
- The introduction of a cage mate; that stimulates; breeding; defence behaviour etc.

These are just a few examples; of factors; that may indeed; reflect some form of mental stimulation...
Given the fact that snakes; like other forms of reptiles; get use to a set routine; does lead one to believe;
that there is some form of thought process involved....I don't believe it's just restricted to 'survival instincts';
regardless whether it's a higher or lower form of reptile.
If a reptile can show sign's of stress; why not is then conceivable; it may need a certain amount;
mental stimulation to flourish?
Either way; IMO; we are responsible for a animals 'quality of life'; regardless of the thought process involved.
One things for sure; I hope my males mentally... stimulate the females

i totally agree. Environmental enrichment and certain enclosure designs are used to give the animal 'choices' in its environment and to promote its natural instincts. Giving it the chance to decide gives it the impression of having some sort of control and it reduces stress and stereotypic behaviour. Reptiles have needs as much as the next animal and although we can only provide for them what we think they need its better than nothing. This isnt humanising either, its simply providing the animal with choices it would be normally provided with in a natural habitat.

 

[bwana]

Hi,
To deprive a treesnake of climbing branches and a taipan of a basking spot is not only cruel, it deprives the keeper the chance to observe their behaviour and abilities. What can you learn from keeping animals in a tub setup, where you can not even observe them properly. This rack system may be easier for the keeper to keep larger numbers of snakes but these animals needs are not being fully met.
All animals need mental stimulation to thrive not just survive. I think reptiles have more intelligence than people understand. I have read an article in which studies have shown that monitors can count (up to six).
Taipan's can reconize their keepers. As do bluetounges, beardeds and monitors ect.,
They have emotions as well as other animals, from fear to curiousity.
Just because emotions in reptiles is not as obvious as in mammals, doesn't mean they don't exist.
Cheers

 

[cris]

This rack system may be easier for the keeper to keep larger numbers of snakes but these animals needs are not being fully met.

What needs arnt being met? I would suggest that if they are in perfect health and breeding well, they have what they need. It may be possible they may not have the best quality of life if they cant chase prey and have the danger of real predators to stimulate them, but i dont see how they really need this. I dont believe we know enough about snake psychology to say for sure at this point.

 

[hydropython]

Hi,
To deprive a treesnake of climbing branches and a taipan of a basking spot is not only cruel, it deprives the keeper the chance to observe their behaviour and abilities. What can you learn from keeping animals in a tub setup, where you can not even observe them properly. This rack system may be easier for the keeper to keep larger numbers of snakes but these animals needs are not being fully met.
All animals need mental stimulation to thrive not just survive. I think reptiles have more intelligence than people understand. I have read an article in which studies have shown that monitors can count (up to six).
Taipan's can reconize their keepers. As do bluetounges, beardeds and monitors ect.,
They have emotions as well as other animals, from fear to curiousity.
Just because emotions in reptiles is not as obvious as in mammals, doesn't mean they don't exist.
Cheers

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH.

The needs of the animal are not being met??

1. heat gradient provided.
2. water provided.
3. food provided. with absolutely no need to pursue prey items, no chance of the prey turning the tables on the predator and injuring the predator beyond repair, no parasites, no mites, no diseases
4. shelter provided.

SNAKES DO NOT HAVE EMOTIONS.

I once read a study that showed significant proportions of mallard ducks participated in necrophiliac homosexual behaviour. It wasn't in a peer reviewed journal. It means nothing.

There is one and only one 'EMOTION' which reptiles have the neurological capacity to process. That is survival for the ultimate goal of reproduction.

Anything else is anthropomorphism and does nothing but make people nice and warm and fuzzy because they think they are actually connecting on some higher level.

George Bush could even see the idiocy in this belief you so adamantly postulated

 

[Jonno from ERD]

Hi,
To deprive a treesnake of climbing branches and a taipan of a basking spot is not only cruel, it deprives the keeper the chance to observe their behaviour and abilities. What can you learn from keeping animals in a tub setup, where you can not even observe them properly. This rack system may be easier for the keeper to keep larger numbers of snakes but these animals needs are not being fully met.
All animals need mental stimulation to thrive not just survive. I think reptiles have more intelligence than people understand. I have read an article in which studies have shown that monitors can count (up to six).
Taipan's can reconize their keepers. As do bluetounges, beardeds and monitors ect.,
They have emotions as well as other animals, from fear to curiousity.
Just because emotions in reptiles is not as obvious as in mammals, doesn't mean they don't exist.
Cheers

G'day Brian,

I can see your point of view, but I see it a little differently. Most animals "natural" behaviour is stimulated by it's instincts...thermoregulation, reproduction, searching for food...if you provide it with the ability to satisfy all these instincts in a basic enclosure, it no longer has the need to exhibit these "natural" behaviours.

There are several reasons I keep my collection the way I do. One of them is definitely convenience, but it also very sterile, affordable and most of all - effective.

You'll notice I specifically referenced what I was saying to snakes as well, not to lizards. Our monitors are provided with what I would call basic but nice enclosures. They have basking spots, sand and multiple hide sites. We feed them on a variety of prey include woodies and crickets for the smaller species and juveniles, which they definitely seem to "enjoy" by foraging and digging.

With regards to Tai's recognising keepers, I'm a little sceptical. Wouldn't you think it is more so recognising the basic differences in how different keepers approach and handle the snake? I know that I have struggled with some Taipans before, only to have a more experienced Tai keeper show me a different technique and the whole attitude of the snake changes because of my modified approach.

I know you're an experienced Tai keeper so I'd love to know your opinion on it.

Cheers

 

[indicus]

Hey mate,

I keep all three species in very simple enclosures. Tree Snakes are kept in 28 litre tubs in a rack system, and Browns and Tai's are kept in tubs measuring 80cm x 40cm x 15cm. I have kept both legally wild caught and captive bred specimens the same way and one thing is certain - they absolutely thrive in it. They nearly always become very calm, apart from the Tai's who relax a lot but not to the extent of Browns.

For the rest of the topic...I find that a lot of people try and humanise their snakes. This isn't really a problem, apart from them providing them with very labour intensive, unsterile enclosures. However, one thing is almost definitely certain - snakes are instinct based, even the so called "intelligent" species like Taipans. Everything they do is based of instinct, a basic hard-wired quest for survival. I don't believe there is any thought processes, no decisions or choices made, just hard-wired reactions to different stimulus. These reactions may vary from individual to individual but that's about it.

It all comes down to how you as a keeper manage your own animals;
and what works for you....
Neither method is necessarily right or wrong; as both 'serve a purpose'.
Tubs are useful for hatchling's or quarantine; that's it; personally I dislike them.
Most reasonable size plastic tubs available; tend to restrict your viewing ability;
and as such you don't view your animals on a daily basis....out of site; out of mind.
IMO if you don't have the time to adequately maintain an enclosure; you've to many animals.
Both tubs; and enclosures are unsterile if you don't 'clean them'...simple as that.
In regards to elapids; with exception to smaller species; I prefer front opening enclosures...
you view the animal on their level; as apposed to a tub where you approach the animal from above;
mostly their on the defensive when you crack the lid....good way to get bitten;
especially if adult specimens such as large taipans; are housed in a small tub....rather dangerous; imo.
Understandably; labs use the tub method; and have done for years; with varying degrees of success.
It doesn't necessarily make it the best; or the right way.
Under these conditions; it's easier to maintain a large collection....and that's why it's adopted.
Take a look at the amount of animals they go through; quite a lot in some instances.
How you mange your reptiles is your business; whatever works for you; as that is what counts...
however plastic tub's are not necessarily the 'best way'.

Back to the subject of whether reptiles 'need' mental stimulus as such
to survive life in captivity.....It's not a matter of 'humanising' your reptiles.
However as the keeper you have the ability to provide an enviroment 'that best suits' the
individual animals needs; regardless of what species.
As you have expressed; they are individuals; and what's successful for one;
may not be for the other....
Through trial and error one hopes that they can recreate or simulate environmental
conditions to the best of ones ability; that in turn suits; an animals particular requirements;
all done within the parameters available.
This may be achieved by giving the animal the freedom of choice;
by adding or subtracting elements of enclosure design that in turn stimulate natural behaviour.
Gone are the Zoo's of the past; just bricks and mortar.
Keepers strive to create enclosures; that serve these individuals 'needs'...
These needs may be achieved through offering different 'stimulus'
all the while taking enclosure design into account.
I believe the lack of this stimulus; is certainly the 'key' factor;
as to why some species dont thrive well in capitivity.

 

[cris]

SNAKES DO NOT HAVE EMOTIONS.

Could you provide some real evidence or atleast a credible theory to support this? Saying snakes have emotions is little to do with anthomorphisation, unless there is a good reason to think they dont, being stupid animals does not somehow exclude them from having emotions.