Some Morelia's

[carpetmuncher]

Captive animals that will never be returned to the wild don't need to "pure" whatever that means. QUOTE]

Captive animals get returned to the wild all the time, usually through escaping but sometimes un-wanted pets get released, especially when their "worth" goes down and you can't give them away or they are illegally kept and the owner does not want to euthanize them, ie; Red Eared Sliders living in the wilds of the East Coast. Of course the hybrid thing will take off like a rocket, as everyone searchers for morphs that know one else has, to chase the dollars...as it did in the US, then it will bust to a degree, old type "morphs" will be worthless, hard to get rid of... a few will be wandering around the wilds, mating with various natural morelia ect... it is already happening now as carpets from other areas have escaped into new areas, pure brown coastals turn up in bushland around Sydney from time to time...

but what's the relevence of escapees, if they are 'pure' animals they will still 'hybridise' with the local animals, so what you would have to ask the authorities to do, would be licence people to only hold animals from their immediate locality. great move forward.

 

[diamondgeeza]

i'm gald you noticed!!! i always find it funny that someone with such a biased opinion, and there is nothing wrong with that, can introduce their rhetoric with "i was just sitting on the fence" or "i didn't really have an opinion" or "i'm not a racist, but". btw, bigi's speel is a translation of one of hitler's speeches, not his own work, i'm sure. i think he wants to be the grand wizard of the pure bred lizards (and snakes, of course)

..funny that as that's what had been going through my mind for a while too.

Last thing we need is people like that otherwise us mixed race people also may be sent off to the chambers together with these 'mud blood' bloody mongrel snakes!

 

[caustichumor]

At the moment in the Australian hobby there are 6 sub-species of Morelia that get called carpet pythons (not including Bredli) And among those 6 groups are dozens of recognised localities which have been maintained by fastideous keepers, We are lucky to have such a wide variety of animals in the one group to choose from. I would like my kids to grow up and still have a similar variety available to them. However I don't see that happening, with the direction the hobby seems to be taking, It will be a shame to loose some of the unique (yet subtle) differances that make it such a wide and variable group. And I know the arguement that there is room in the hobby for both, But I don't see how? once the lines are crossed they can't simply be crossed back, and the inevitable backyard hybrid breeding bonanza will explode, People will realise in time that most of these hybrids are actually not that special, There will be some stunning hybrids but for each stand out, there will be a dozen average animals that end up in the hands of novice keepers, and inevitably bred to whatever else is physically able to get a leg over in genetic terms.
In all the American forums, do you think the hybrid photo's displayed are an average representation of a clutch?
And we are not talking about hybrids escaping into the wild, Or animals escaping and polluting the blood of areas outside it's range. Valid points but have nothing to do with the deliberate hybridization of Morelia in Captivity (in Australia).

 

[JasonL]

but what's the relevence of escapees, if they are 'pure' animals they will still 'hybridise' with the local animals, so what you would have to ask the authorities to do, would be licence people to only hold animals from their immediate locality. great move forward.

Move forward??? in which direction where you refering to? the hobby as a whole? or the preservation of our natural fauna? Personally, I don't care where the hobby goes, I don't care if all herps were worthless, in fact that would solve all the problems, and only those who liked keeping herps would. My only concern is for wild populations.

 

[solar 17]

exotic / hybrid directions

This is a casual observation, on exotics / hybrids [whatever]...for the last 10 years at least we have been following the avicultural [birds] [caged] to such an exact degree lts not funny [our direction ls about 3-4 years behind them] what with imports illegal entries and final exceptance...like lt or not there are huge numbers of exotic reptiles here already....personally l find this paralell to birds unbelievable ....but have a look what birds most pet shops / birdkeepers are selling......these are factual observations not my personal opinion....cheers solar 17 [Baden]

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Love your post bigi, and I was not even born Australian.

 

[Hooglabah]

on the topic of money i would love it if a whole heap of native herps went cheap i could have all the animals i want so what if you cant make a killing off it dont most people get into this hooby cuz they are into herps not to make the dollars.there are better ways to make a liveing anyway.

 

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

Protect wild populations. This is what should be the number one priority! Captive animals ar lost to that gene pool. No matter what the experts say on this site, as soon as there is human selection involved then they are worthless and can not be returned. Maybe people should start reading more about the protocol behind capture and release projects of wild animals, out of books. Not stuff that has been written by self proclaiming experts on reptile forums. But actual scientific studies. The Australian government will never allow captive snakes with no history to be released back into the wild. Maybe some of Daves animals will be ok as he knows exactly where they originated from. The government is paranoid since all their good fortunes with introducing species. People mention gorillas, Walea and god knows what else! But their main threat is habitat destruction. Not anything else. Stop building roads and holiday homes in Queensland! All these things kill reptiles. Stop driving cars. Don't keep snakes anymore as this fuels poaching. These are things that will ensure wild populations to flourish. Not anything in the hobby will have a bigger effect on wild numbers than these. This will ensure the future of all reptile species. 90% of all pythons in Australian collections ancestry can not be traced to where they were collected. All you can do is rate them by appearance. And people that can tell you where they were collected did so illegally. Except for a few with collectors licences. These Legally collected animals are the lines that can and have to be protected. By not being line bred or being tampered with in any way. These are the things that can be controlled! Have a stud book like zoos where information can be stored to ensure unrelated animals are bred together. And this means even the ugly ones. Don't worry about the things that you can't control, but control the things you can.

 

[chenobi]

i didn't think you were allowed to cross breed ? I thought the EPA deemed it illegal?

 

[ivonavich]

Have been reading this thread one a day to day basis... Very educational and entertaining. A good example of why internet forums are a good thing - lots of open debate on a current topic. Thankyou.

As for my opinion. I prob won't go out of my way to buy a designer snake. I think as spectacular as some are there are some real beautiful aussie natives. That said I don't look down on others for the practice of cross-breeding. Each to his own.

 

[QldMorelias]

Very well said Cordylus,
alot of debate on this thread has been related to the safety of wild populations. One argument people have been stating against hybrids, is the possibility of people in the future discarding or releasing unfashionable designer snakes into the wild. This is a fair concern, however it is no different if people were to discard ugly Bredli, maculosus or metcalfei into or outside of their natural range, all captive animals no matter their origin or species, pose a legitimate threat to wild populations.
It is not undesirable or unfashionable animals that will cause people to potentially release or discard animals, Like Jason L said it is the decrease in demand.
I think that anyone (ourselves included) who wishes to produce designer animals, need to take care with who we trade our animals too and also give correct and honest ancestry of the animals. I for one will honour this, as I understand the purists concern that lines potentially could become clouded. But there will always be some keepers outhere maintaining clean lines and yes I think clean lines will become more desirable in the future because of designer snakes.

However, at the end of the day, all reptiles in captivity are just pets and no more. Anyones so-called breeding program or locale specific program is only as good as the next person that buys the offspring. Like I said, they are just pets.

Protect wild populations. This is what should be the number one priority! Captive animals ar lost to that gene pool. No matter what the experts say on this site, as soon as there is human selection involved then they are worthless and can not be returned. Maybe people should start reading more about the protocol behind capture and release projects of wild animals, out of books. Not stuff that has been written by self proclaiming experts on reptile forums. But actual scientific studies. The Australian government will never allow captive snakes with no history to be released back into the wild. Maybe some of Daves animals will be ok as he knows exactly where they originated from. The government is paranoid since all their good fortunes with introducing species. People mention gorillas, Walea and god knows what else! But their main threat is habitat destruction. Not anything else. Stop building roads and holiday homes in Queensland! All these things kill reptiles. Stop driving cars. Don't keep snakes anymore as this fuels poaching. These are things that will ensure wild populations to flourish. Not anything in the hobby will have a bigger effect on wild numbers than these. This will ensure the future of all reptile species. 90% of all pythons in Australian collections ancestry can not be traced to where they were collected. All you can do is rate them by appearance. And people that can tell you where they were collected did so illegally. Except for a few with collectors licences. These Legally collected animals are the lines that can and have to be protected. By not being line bred or being tampered with in any way. These are the things that can be controlled! Have a stud book like zoos where information can be stored to ensure unrelated animals are bred together. And this means even the ugly ones. Don't worry about the things that you can't control, but control the things you can.

 

[caustichumor]

I love the hybridizers all trying to placate purists by claiming pure animals prices will go up after they have finished making the morelia milkshake....

 

[WombleHerp]

I love the hybridizers all trying to placate purists by claiming pure animals prices will go up after they have finished making the morelia milkshake....

and what a great tasting milkshake that is :lol:


Nat x

 

[Kersten]

I love the hybridizers all trying to placate purists by claiming pure animals prices will go up after they have finished making the morelia milkshake....

I can't figure out if I like that one or the one about how it's all just a matter of personal opinion and nothing they do affects anyone else best.

 

[Southside Morelia]

Have been reading this thread one a day to day basis... Very educational and entertaining. A good example of why internet forums are a good thing - lots of open debate on a current topic. Thankyou.

As for my opinion. I prob won't go out of my way to buy a designer snake. I think as spectacular as some are there are some real beautiful aussie natives. That said I don't look down on others for the practice of cross-breeding. Each to his own.

I agree whole heartidly....BUT designer snakes can still be pure ie line bred for specific traits.
Again each to their own as far as hybrid/pure..it's more offensive in a democratic society (providing it's LEGAL) to let others tell you what you can and can't do.... that is the roots of the issue ..IMO.

 

[Wild~Touch]

Don't worry about the things that you can't control, but control the things you can.

Haha ... therein lies the trick question "The wisdom to know the difference"

Cheers
Sandee

 

[BT]

personally, i hate designer snakes in general (hybrid or not), and dont believe i will ever own one, i prefer snakes that are like a wild type animal, the ones most call "crap" and "plain" are the ones i prefer, probably the only one with this opinion,I like herps for the thrill of owning them, even if they were not worth any money i would still keep and breed them,
BT

 

[Southside Morelia]

LMAO Sandee..
Too true grasshopper.....
But unfortunately, my observation IMO, is what I have experienced and what I have expressed in my post!

Don't worry about the things that you can't control, but control the things you can.

Haha ... therein lies the trick question "The wisdom to know the difference"

Cheers
Sandee

 

[Schlumpe]

Perhaps the next step is “Genetically Modified Snakes” so they can grow legs . . .

 

[krefft]

Well done to both sides of the fence. 500 posts and only 7 deletions amongst them. Healthy debate is a good thing when it remains civil, though probably very few people have been swayed from their initial feeling on the subject.